2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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hollus
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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This line of debate,: they did someting to my team in the past; no, they did something to "my" team in the past, literally leads nowhere. It is ying-yang, it is noise, it never ends.
All teams can find lots of controversial decisions gone their way in the past. And lots gone against them.
Selectively bringing them back every time a threat to "my" team from a fan of "their" team is perceived leads nowhere, it is an infinite loop.

Come'on. This is the internet, stop trying to win. You won't.
Enjoy the dabate and, please, if it does not bring anything new to the table, don't post it!

/Rant over/.


carisi2k wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:38 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:38 am
carisi2k wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:50 am
Lewis and George said in Canada that they can't raise the suspension any higher which tells you that the W13 is poorly designed and Mercedes are just pushing for a free get out of jail card from the FIA.
Perhaps they think that it's time that they got a bit of help like Red Bull got with the engine modes restriction - brought in because Red Bull/Honda couldn't do it as well as Mercedes and Ferrari. And that's before we get to the aero changes last year that basically hamstrung the Merc. Oh, and safety car rules... :wink:
Oh you mean the race where Lewis wasn't penalised after gaining an advantage by leaving the track on the first lap. Oh maybe the first race of the year where Lewis left the track and gained a lasting advantage for the first 30 laps only for Max to fall victim for doing it once. Oh and what about after hitting Max in Saudi Arabia even though he had ample opportunity to go around and yet didn't get a penalty for either causing an avoidable accident or a meatball flag for wing damage which Kmag suffered at the recent Canadian Gran Prix.

Oh and lets not forget that Lewis wasn't black flagged for absolutely nailing Max in to the Barrier at Silverstone. There were also the constant calls of supposed flexi wings against Red bull all the while the Mercedes front wing was moving at least 10 times as much as the little bit of deflection the Red Bull had in Baku. Oh and lets not actually forget which car actually got done for cheating and instead of being thrown out was allowed to gain positions in the sprint race that allowed him to win the race the following day.

All these Mercedes fans complaining about 1 decision all the while forgetting or dismissing the things that Mercedes got away with throughout the year. Poor Masi probably made the call out of frustration because of all the crap Toto has put on him since Charlie's passing. Now all the other teams actually realise what a good job he was actually doing because of the inconsistency of the current lot of race stewards.
I would like to see a paleontologist.

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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carisi2k wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:15 pm
Quantum wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:31 am

You're leaving out Perez comments from earlier races.
It’s when you reach a speed of 300 km/h that the problems start, and these are that you lose visibility when braking or you are unable to position the car correctly.
I never recalled Perez saying it at any time other then at the first Test when they were all suffering from it and Baku because of the bumps. Red Bull solved the issue and the RB18 runs at a higher ride height then most of the other cars and they also seem to have a better suspension setup to deal with it as well. Why does the FIA need to mandate something that is clearly already within the teams ability to solve.

At Canada what I saw was a lot of cars bottoming out on the bumps rather then actual porpoising. Whatever the issues are the teams have the ability to solve this issue themselves without any intervention whatsoever.

The only thing that I believe the FIA should mandate is a safer seat for the drivers. The teams have been minimising this for way too long now and a seat with significantly more foam cushioning is needed for sure. But no new suspension system or any new rule should be introduced just to benefit Mercedes and Lewis.
He said it at the start of April.

I can cite the stories but they're very prevalent all over the interwebz.

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carisi2k
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Quantum wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:17 pm
carisi2k wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:15 pm
Quantum wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:31 am

You're leaving out Perez comments from earlier races.
It’s when you reach a speed of 300 km/h that the problems start, and these are that you lose visibility when braking or you are unable to position the car correctly.
I never recalled Perez saying it at any time other then at the first Test when they were all suffering from it and Baku because of the bumps. Red Bull solved the issue and the RB18 runs at a higher ride height then most of the other cars and they also seem to have a better suspension setup to deal with it as well. Why does the FIA need to mandate something that is clearly already within the teams ability to solve.

At Canada what I saw was a lot of cars bottoming out on the bumps rather then actual porpoising. Whatever the issues are the teams have the ability to solve this issue themselves without any intervention whatsoever.

The only thing that I believe the FIA should mandate is a safer seat for the drivers. The teams have been minimising this for way too long now and a seat with significantly more foam cushioning is needed for sure. But no new suspension system or any new rule should be introduced just to benefit Mercedes and Lewis.
He said it at the start of April.

I can cite the stories but they're very prevalent all over the interwebz.
Ok I see them but early April is a long time ago now and I suspect he is talking about the issue from the Barcelona test where the rb18 did have porpoising. Red Bull have since solved the issue and the RB18 is not suffering any more from it and we know they now have a raised rear ride height. So Mercedes need figure something similar out on their car and stop crying to the FIA to help them be competitive which Toto was telling to all the other teams when mercedes were winning all those championships.

aMessageToCharlie
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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I remember during the Mercedes dominance years certain vocal people here were arguing how teams should just build better cars and how drivers should just drive better to get hired by the team with the best car if they want to win. Guess that didnt age too well.

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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carisi2k wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:25 am


Ok I see them but early April is a long time ago now and I suspect he is talking about the issue from the Barcelona test where the rb18 did have porpoising. Red Bull have since solved the issue and the RB18 is not suffering any more from it and we know they now have a raised rear ride height. So Mercedes need figure something similar out on their car and stop crying to the FIA to help them be competitive which Toto was telling to all the other teams when mercedes were winning all those championships.
I think you are literally ignoring the facts because you are bitter Mercedes won championships. That's literally how your reply is reading to me.

The RB18 is suffering porposing, we literally saw it at Canada. The extent is just far less than the Mercedes or Ferrari.
I'm struggling to see why you would even attempt to deny RB have any porpoising whatsoever, and it goes some way to show the cognitive bias you are displaying. And going by Perez avoiding questions on the matter, it seems to me he was one of the drivers told not to speak to the media about it. So let the drivers continue to get battered and risk serious injury or accident because......RB need to keep their advantage? That is headshaking bad.
Or because Mercedes screwed up? Guess they must be responsible for the others porpoising too. Again, headshakinlgy bad excuse to let the problem carry on.
Raise the rear 10mm? Been over this, didn't solve the problem at all for Mercedes. RB still shows some porpoising too. Ferrari too.

Skip to 1min in the video and tell me, RB18 isn't porpoising.

Edit link geotagged... but Perez can be seen bouncing in Canada.




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carisi2k
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Quantum you just posted a video that literally shows no porpoising at all by the red bull. There are a couple of occasions where the car hits a bump like at the 1 minute mark you suggested and that is all. No porpoising at all.

In this video you can see what porpoising actually looks like.

In this video comparing the Ferrari to the Red Bull at Baku you see the difference between porpoising (Ferrari) and bottoming out (Red Bull).

Here is another video of leclerc in Melbourne.

Here is Lewis in Baku.

Your mistaking bottoming out on bumps which all the cars do versus the porpoising that the Ferrari and Mercedes do. In addition to the porpoising at Baku Lewis was also suffering from bottoming out on the bumps which is why he was getting 9g's up the spine.

TimW
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Yes no porpoising at all in the video of Perez in Canada.

According to Michael Schmidt in Formel Schmidt on AMUS last week, the agenda of Mercedes was to have mandatory cut outs in the floor, similar to what Mercedes tested in FP1, to solve porpoising. This should then relatively benefit Mercedes because it hurts performance of all teams, also those who do not suffer from porpoising.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... i-porsche/

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carisi2k
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Here is a comparison between the 3 top cars at baku. You can see the constant noise of the plank hitting on the Ferrari and Mercedes that you can't here on the Red Bull. That is the difference between porpoising and just bottoming over bumps.

https://scuderiafans.com/video-ferrari- ... -straight/
Last edited by carisi2k on Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

mzso
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:03 am
Raise the rear 10mm? Been over this, didn't solve the problem at all for Mercedes. RB still shows some porpoising too. Ferrari too.
No-one raised the the rideheight by 10mm. And it being ineffectual is just Mercedes' propaganda, because they have the most to lose.

Anyway, I'm more sympathetic to it every day. If some gaming team refuses to set up the car so it wouldn't oscillate, they well deserve the punishment.

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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mzso wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:39 am
Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:03 am
Raise the rear 10mm? Been over this, didn't solve the problem at all for Mercedes. RB still shows some porpoising too. Ferrari too.
No-one raised the the rideheight by 10mm. And it being ineffectual is just Mercedes' propaganda, because they have the most to lose.

Anyway, I'm more sympathetic to it every day. If some gaming team refuses to set up the car so it wouldn't oscillate, they well deserve the punishment.
We saw from various practice sessions that the porpoising remained when Hamilton had the jacked rear for Mercedes experimental set ups. Propaganda?

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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carisi2k wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:39 am
Here is a comparison between the 3 top cars at baku. You can see the constant noise of the plank hitting on the Ferrari and Mercedes that you can't here on the Red Bull. That is the difference between porpoising and just bottoming over bumps.

https://scuderiafans.com/video-ferrari- ... -straight/
You would hear the bottoming if it was bottoming. Porpoising does not mean the car has to bottom. The effect can take place without it.
Perez was likely just having a seizure. Probably also just made up his comments throughout the season.

Nothing to see here...

mzso
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:54 am
mzso wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:39 am
Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:03 am
Raise the rear 10mm? Been over this, didn't solve the problem at all for Mercedes. RB still shows some porpoising too. Ferrari too.
No-one raised the the rideheight by 10mm. And it being ineffectual is just Mercedes' propaganda, because they have the most to lose.

Anyway, I'm more sympathetic to it every day. If some gaming team refuses to set up the car so it wouldn't oscillate, they well deserve the punishment.
We saw from various practice sessions that the porpoising remained when Hamilton had the jacked rear for Mercedes experimental set ups. Propaganda?
You saw 10mm? Good for you.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:56 am
...Porpoising does not mean the car has to bottom. The effect can take place without it.
is that 4 - 6 Hz porpoising without a 6g aka 9g component ?
or something else ?

sincere question(s)

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:15 pm
Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:56 am
...Porpoising does not mean the car has to bottom. The effect can take place without it.
is that 4 - 6 Hz porpoising without a 6g aka 9g component ?
or something else ?

sincere question(s)
Cmon Tommy, the G is a variable between the cars with their own data points. It's enough to visibly see Perez helmet shaking on the straight in the smoothest of this years cars. You can speculate the numbers, I'll just go by what I see and hear from the drivers, including Perez.

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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mzso wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:59 am
You saw 10mm? Good for you.
You must have me confused with someone that said 10mm.