Yes
Packers?DiogoBrand wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:50 pmAre bumpstops allowed in F1? I mean, a team could setup the suspension to not compress enough to stall and it would resolve the issue.
Weren’t the mass dampers more effective at cancelling our lower amplitude vibrations, like running over kerbs? To cancel out the kind of porpoising we’ve been seeing, you’d need a pretty heavy mass damper wouldn’t you?
It would alleviate the effect but not cure the cause of the issue.
This should be controlled by the heave spring, which is a better way of doing it, but also how push/pull rod suspensions work in general, at least in the rear.DiogoBrand wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:50 pmAre bumpstops allowed in F1? I mean, a team could setup the suspension to not compress enough to stall and it would resolve the issue.
Likely. You want to tune out the amplitude in which it is porpoising at.RicerDude wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:53 pmWeren’t the mass dampers more effective at cancelling our lower amplitude vibrations, like running over kerbs? To cancel out the kind of porpoising we’ve been seeing, you’d need a pretty heavy mass damper wouldn’t you?
What other way do you have of solving it that doesn't involve a loss in max downforce?godlameroso wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:04 pmUsing suspension to cure this is like using the American healthcare model. You just want a patch that just suppresses the symptoms and doesn't address the root cause. This is a poor approach unless you want repeat customers.
Race cars are a series of compromises.godlameroso wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:04 pmUsing suspension to cure this is like using the American healthcare model. You just want a patch that just suppresses the symptoms and doesn't address the root cause. This is a poor approach unless you want repeat customers.
You modify the floor to reduce the likely hood of flow detachment. Particularly at the bow, and the diffuser. Alpine proved that you can mitigate stalling at the diffuser with a supplemental air stream. Alpha Tauri had little to no porpoising, and McLaren largely avoided the issue as well. Look at their floors and analyze how they are different to Mercedes, AMR, Ferrari, Alpine, and the other bouncy bois. The bouncy bois all have sharp axe bows, the non bouncy bois have blunted, more bulbous bows, and in the case of McLaren they channel the bow wake over and around the tunnel inlet.DiogoBrand wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:06 pmWhat other way do you have of solving it that doesn't involve a loss in max downforce?godlameroso wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:04 pmUsing suspension to cure this is like using the American healthcare model. You just want a patch that just suppresses the symptoms and doesn't address the root cause. This is a poor approach unless you want repeat customers.
(And is within the rules)
Did they mitigate it?godlameroso wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:11 pmYou modify the floor to reduce the likely hood of flow detachment. Particularly at the bow, and the diffuser. Alpine proved that you can mitigate stalling at the diffuser with a supplemental air stream. Alpha Tauri had little to no porpoising, and McLaren largely avoided the issue as well. Look at their floors and analyze how they are different to Mercedes, AMR, Ferrari, Alpine, and the other bouncy bois. The bouncy bois all have sharp axe bows, the non bouncy bois have blunted, more bulbous bows, and in the case of McLaren they channel the bow wake over and around the tunnel inlet.DiogoBrand wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:06 pmWhat other way do you have of solving it that doesn't involve a loss in max downforce?godlameroso wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:04 pmUsing suspension to cure this is like using the American healthcare model. You just want a patch that just suppresses the symptoms and doesn't address the root cause. This is a poor approach unless you want repeat customers.
(And is within the rules)
The suspension is not an ideal solution, it's A solution. If you are forced to use bump stops to keep the car from bottoming out it still doesn't change the car behavior if it's being caused by aero instability. If you limit suspension travel so the car doesn't get too low, then you also limit suspension travel over bumps, you also limit grip at low speed corners. Whereas if you solve the issue from an aero perspective you free the suspension to work in a greater range of conditions. This is why solving the root issue is the way to go in the long run.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:10 pmRace cars are a series of compromises.godlameroso wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:04 pmUsing suspension to cure this is like using the American healthcare model. You just want a patch that just suppresses the symptoms and doesn't address the root cause. This is a poor approach unless you want repeat customers.
If the ability to control rear ride height is the issue, then the suspension is absolutely the solution.
If the issue is vortex shearing causing a resonance, then yes, it isn’t the sole solution, but it may be a combination of suspension and aero.
Same goes for choke flow caused by flow separations.
It’s an entire package.
McLaren was running slammed since day one and they did experience it but not to the extent of the bouncy boi crew.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:13 pmDid they mitigate it?godlameroso wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:11 pmYou modify the floor to reduce the likely hood of flow detachment. Particularly at the bow, and the diffuser. Alpine proved that you can mitigate stalling at the diffuser with a supplemental air stream. Alpha Tauri had little to no porpoising, and McLaren largely avoided the issue as well. Look at their floors and analyze how they are different to Mercedes, AMR, Ferrari, Alpine, and the other bouncy bois. The bouncy bois all have sharp axe bows, the non bouncy bois have blunted, more bulbous bows, and in the case of McLaren they channel the bow wake over and around the tunnel inlet.DiogoBrand wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:06 pm
What other way do you have of solving it that doesn't involve a loss in max downforce?
(And is within the rules)
I believe we’re lacking data to definitely say whether they all did or not, and I believe it is reported it still exists at some magnitude on all of them.