2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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mendis
mendis
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:53 am
Not to mention Horner is spinning everything to suit his agenda. He knows teams and drivers will always push the limit unless the FIA stops them. To much is at stake for them not to. Jules died because he was pushing the limit. Williams initially believed senna died because they pushed the limit on the steering column.30

Here is Horner's star designer on that very topic.
https://www.racefans.net/2017/11/03/new ... his-death/
Senna’s steering column had been modified in an attempt to improve his driving position. Newey drew up the plans to reposition the steering column and reduce its diameter at one point. He described the changes as “two very bad pieces of engineering” which “Patrick [Head] and I were responsible for”.

Following the crash Williams conducted tests of their steering column design. They found that despite the reduction in diameter and a fatigue crack on the shaft, the column was still functional.

Nonetheless Newey says he still feels “guilty” about the crash. “I was one of the senior officers in a team that designed a car in which a great man was killed,” he said.

“Regardless of whether that steering column caused the accident or not, there is no escaping the fact that it was a bad piece of design that should never have been allowed to get on the car.”
Both Horner and Toto are cut from the same cloth. Both are equally vicious in pushing their agenda. All this porpoising drama was amplified by Mercedes with a bad car and Horner is trying to retain his side of the advantage by pushing back on changes.

To be honest, the so called dangers of porpoising have been blown out of proportion, largely by Mercedes. Toto had the biggest trumpet on this one and his drivers acted very well according to the script. They designed a bad car and it took a while to find out a solution and in the meantime, they tried hard to handicap other teams. It was that simple. Now even without any regulation changes, their car has no porpoising. All this floor flexing is as much a dark art as anything else in F1 and FIA has been clueless if that's actually a thing. Mercedes highlighted it and FIA took it seriously. Not sure if Spa change will have any bearing on any team.

Now that no car has any porpoising, what's the need to change regulations for next year? FIA is once again making monkey's meal out of this. They can't let the regulations stabilize for once.

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dans79
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:08 pm
aren't F1 cars made for periods approaching 5.5g laterally, 5.5g longitudinally & even combinations greater than that ?
or from the next fast race will braking points be moved forward by 100 metres ?
F1 cars are just like the last several generations of fighter jets, they can handle far more than the actual pilots.

imo, the biggest short term risk the drivers face is just losing control of the car because of the rapid change in g load vertically. In baku several drivers looked like they where bordering on losing control on the main strait.

after that would probably be redout, but i'm not sure how fast negative Gs can cause that.
the FAA has this to say about it.
https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilot ... ration.pdf
While the effects of +Gz can be profound, the
human body is even less well equipped to
handle -Gz, which is described as a foot-tohead force and is encountered when a pilot
pushes over into a dive or enters an outside
loop. Under -Gz, the blood is prevented from
flowing back down the jugular veins into
the heart, but the arterial blood flow to the
head is enhanced. Once again, the retina
of the eye is extremely sensitive, and the
visual effect is a loss of vision due to “Red
Out.” If the pilot does not back off the control
pressure, loss of consciousness will ensue in
short order because the blood does not flow
through the brain.

like with Gasly spinal injuries are a mid term concern. rally drivers have issue with this, here is a study on that (and I'm sure the FIA is aware of this issue).
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/35/5/314
the study even has some f1 references.
revious studies have shown a high prevalence of wrist injury and back pain for professional Formula 1 (F1) and rally drivers. Fourteen of the 22 F1 drivers (64%) at the 1998 French Grand Prix reported upper extremity disorders,1 compared with a 25% incidence of wrist and hand injuries in the general sporting population.2 Furthermore, all drivers who participated before 1991 reported irritation to the palm of the right hand from use of a gear change lever. These symptoms were eliminated by the use of semiautomatic gear change levers mounted behind the steering wheel, introduced since the 1991 season. Chronic exposure to vibration has also been suggested as a cause of back pain for F1 drivers.3 The incidence and severity of back pain for F1 drivers decreased significantly between 1982 and 1983 because a rule change forced a reduction in the stiffness of suspension elements in F1 cars, thereby providing some degree of isolation from vibration. However, although the incidence decreased, most drivers in the 1983 season still reported pain in the cervical and lumbar spine.
long term the issue is brain injury.
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Stu
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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The teams are in control of the cars that they build, set-up & design choices, if they cause issues with driver well-being in some cars, but not others other voices should be made.
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

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dans79
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Stu wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:01 pm
The teams are in control of the cars that they build, set-up & design choices, if they cause issues with driver well-being in some cars, but not others other voices should be made.
as i said yesterday, and as gastly admission also shows, the teams and the drivers will willingly push anything and everything to the limit (and beyond in some cases), unless the governing body prevents them from doing so.

Max even admitted as much.
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-dr ... /10322788/
“It's just a give and take. I mean, it's not nice, but I know there's more lap time in it by running it lower, so you run it low, even if it's not comfortable.”
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vorticism
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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If you no longer go for a gap...

mzso
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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vorticism wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:21 pm
If you no longer go for a gap...
No need to refer to the lamest excuse to crashing into others.

mendis
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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mzso wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:28 pm
vorticism wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:21 pm
If you no longer go for a gap...
No need to refer to the lamest excuse to crashing into others.
Agreed. That was the biggest BS a driver could spew, while fully aware of the consequences of such a dumb move.

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F1Krof
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Do they do deflection tests on the underfloor flaps?

Considering RBR has little to no porpoising and their straightline speed is incredible. Is it possible that they're dynamically deflecting the airflow with the flaps which transform under different loads? I mean, look at their implementation of the flaps, it's different to every other team?
Wroom wroom

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Zynerji
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Stu wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:01 pm
The teams are in control of the cars that they build, set-up & design choices, if they cause issues with driver well-being in some cars, but not others other voices should be made.
The very reason the GPDA exists, IMHO.

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Stu
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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F1Krof wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:34 pm
Do they do deflection tests on the underfloor flaps?

Considering RBR has little to no porpoising and their straightline speed is incredible. Is it possible that they're dynamically deflecting the airflow with the flaps which transform under different loads? I mean, look at their implementation of the flaps, it's different to every other team?
Unlikely, there have been plenty of photos of the underfloor and there are no skid-plates visible on the lower edges.
There is no doubt that they are using the airflow dynamically (all of the teams are to some extent), but movable bodywork? Again, no more than any other team.
Had Mercedes fixed their issues earlier the season may have a different look to it, but RedBull have shown a greater appreciation of the dynamic/transient airflow than any other team this year.
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Hope this is the right topic, if not can mods move it please.

Does anyone else think the floor regs for 2023 are a bit premature? The changes come out the same time as the TD039 which was there to control the porpoising levels, and plank wear.
Should teams have been given another season to make sure they can get their cars within the safe levels of bouncing? It certainly seems like there is no problem now, since spa, 3 races and the cars look to be pretty good on TV. I wonder if the floor changes are going to hurt something that isn’t there in the 2nd half of the season.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

mzso
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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chrisc90 wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:15 am
Hope this is the right topic, if not can mods move it please.

Does anyone else think the floor regs for 2023 are a bit premature? The changes come out the same time as the TD039 which was there to control the porpoising levels, and plank wear.
Should teams have been given another season to make sure they can get their cars within the safe levels of bouncing? It certainly seems like there is no problem now, since spa, 3 races and the cars look to be pretty good on TV. I wonder if the floor changes are going to hurt something that isn’t there in the 2nd half of the season.
What do you mean hurt "something"?
(I think a safety margin should have been there from the beginning. Better late than never.)

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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mzso wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:57 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:15 am
Hope this is the right topic, if not can mods move it please.

Does anyone else think the floor regs for 2023 are a bit premature? The changes come out the same time as the TD039 which was there to control the porpoising levels, and plank wear.
Should teams have been given another season to make sure they can get their cars within the safe levels of bouncing? It certainly seems like there is no problem now, since spa, 3 races and the cars look to be pretty good on TV. I wonder if the floor changes are going to hurt something that isn’t there in the 2nd half of the season.
What do you mean hurt "something"?
(I think a safety margin should have been there from the beginning. Better late than never.)
Sorry, wrong wording used or poorly put.

By hurt something I meant that when the floor is lifted up 15mm (or whatever it is) I'm hoping that the effects of that isn't going to be too detrimental to the ground effect the cars are made on. Obviously with ground effect you want to keep the floor sealed as much as possible, so hopefully a higher floor, wont 'hurt' that philosophy
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

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carisi2k
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:15 pm
Stu wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:01 pm
The teams are in control of the cars that they build, set-up & design choices, if they cause issues with driver well-being in some cars, but not others other voices should be made.
as i said yesterday, and as gastly admission also shows, the teams and the drivers will willingly push anything and everything to the limit (and beyond in some cases), unless the governing body prevents them from doing so.

Max even admitted as much.
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-dr ... /10322788/
“It's just a give and take. I mean, it's not nice, but I know there's more lap time in it by running it lower, so you run it low, even if it's not comfortable.”
Baku wasn't a porpoising issue so much as the track was extremely bumpy that most of the drivers were suffering from this rather then porpoising. Mercedes was the worst offender because they were porpoising and corner bouncing in addition to the bottoming caused by the rough track. The Red Bull hasn't porpoised all year and didn't do this at Baku either but it was affected by the bumps on the front straight.