A post EV era

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Zynerji
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Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: A post EV era

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DChemTech wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:29 am
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:47 pm

Correct. And I then have available actions to remedy, like boycotts and votes.
... so, you will hold them accountable and attempt to convert them by force?
I wouldn't call utilizing my personal span of control to direct my own life as being forceful upon others. If I don't like the game you play, I simply will not participate. Other games will pop up.

DChemTech
DChemTech
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Location: Delft, NL

Re: A post EV era

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:08 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:29 am
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:47 pm

Correct. And I then have available actions to remedy, like boycotts and votes.
... so, you will hold them accountable and attempt to convert them by force?
I wouldn't call utilizing my personal span of control to direct my own life as being forceful upon others. If I don't like the game you play, I simply will not participate. Other games will pop up.
Sure, but since they hold no obligation towards other human beings (e.g. voters), I suppose they can just ignore the vote; it's their freedom to do so. You can avoid 'games' all you want - that doesn't save libertarianism from being an incoherent system. I maintain, universal freedom without accountability is not viable, and eventually leads to a less free society than a system with accountability.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Location: Australia

Re: A post EV era

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DChemTech wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:12 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:08 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:29 am


... so, you will hold them accountable and attempt to convert them by force?
I wouldn't call utilizing my personal span of control to direct my own life as being forceful upon others. If I don't like the game you play, I simply will not participate. Other games will pop up.
Sure, but since they hold no obligation towards other human beings (e.g. voters), I suppose they can just ignore the vote; it's their freedom to do so. You can avoid 'games' all you want - that doesn't save libertarianism from being an incoherent system. I maintain, universal freedom without accountability is not viable, and eventually leads to a less free society than a system with accountability.
All the problems started with the introduction of multiple choice questions and John McEnroe :wink:

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
561
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: A post EV era

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johnny comelately wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:25 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:12 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:08 pm


I wouldn't call utilizing my personal span of control to direct my own life as being forceful upon others. If I don't like the game you play, I simply will not participate. Other games will pop up.
Sure, but since they hold no obligation towards other human beings (e.g. voters), I suppose they can just ignore the vote; it's their freedom to do so. You can avoid 'games' all you want - that doesn't save libertarianism from being an incoherent system. I maintain, universal freedom without accountability is not viable, and eventually leads to a less free society than a system with accountability.
All the problems started with the introduction of multiple choice questions and John McEnroe :wink:
What? You can not be serious! :evil:






















\:D/
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: A post EV era

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DChemTech wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:12 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:08 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:29 am


... so, you will hold them accountable and attempt to convert them by force?
I wouldn't call utilizing my personal span of control to direct my own life as being forceful upon others. If I don't like the game you play, I simply will not participate. Other games will pop up.
Sure, but since they hold no obligation towards other human beings (e.g. voters), I suppose they can just ignore the vote; it's their freedom to do so. You can avoid 'games' all you want - that doesn't save libertarianism from being an incoherent system. I maintain, universal freedom without accountability is not viable, and eventually leads to a less free society than a system with accountability.
Exactly. Society can not function unless people have at least some accountability of their actions and the associated consequences.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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vorticism
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Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:20 pm

Re: A post EV era

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:32 pm
Exactly. Society can not function unless people have at least some accountability of their actions and the associated consequences.
Agreed. So what is to be done about the bankers, barons, and bureaucrats who over the past half century built up the carbon bomb of the so called developing world?

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Zynerji
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Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: A post EV era

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vorticism wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:05 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:32 pm
Exactly. Society can not function unless people have at least some accountability of their actions and the associated consequences.
Agreed. So what is to be done about the bankers, barons, and bureaucrats who over the past half century built up the carbon bomb of the so called developing world?
Precisely.

Then Klaus Schwab makes us eat bugs...

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: A post EV era

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vorticism wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:05 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:32 pm
Exactly. Society can not function unless people have at least some accountability of their actions and the associated consequences.
Agreed. So what is to be done about the bankers, barons, and bureaucrats who over the past half century built up the carbon bomb of the so called developing world?
They are as accountable as everyone that bought the goods, the fuel, the rest of it, that they sold cheaply.

Or if you must start at the top, try going after Blackrock, Vanguard, et al. Should keep you busy for a few minutes.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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vorticism
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Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:20 pm

Re: A post EV era

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:18 pm
They are as accountable as everyone that bought the goods...
Now do sub-prime mortgages, payday loans, street drugs, etc. Some in the West did try to boycott or protest over the decades the more affordable imported goods because it was impossible to compete with them on labor cost. The poor will try to save money on their purchases inevitably; hence the ship of society does need some decent steering. Saying the passengers and the guys filling the boiler are partly to blame for hitting the iceberg is... odd?
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:18 pm
Or if you must start at the top, try going after Blackrock, Vanguard, et al.
Decent place to start.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: A post EV era

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vorticism wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:32 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:18 pm
They are as accountable as everyone that bought the goods...
Now do sub-prime mortgages, payday loans, street drugs, etc. Some in the West did try to boycott or protest over the decades the more affordable imported goods because it was impossible to compete with them on labor cost. The poor will try to save money on their purchases inevitably; hence the ship of society does need some decent steering. Saying the passengers and the guys filling the boiler are partly to blame for hitting the iceberg is... odd?
But saying "I'm not doing anything to help because I didn't start it" is a bit like saying "I'm not going to throw water on my burning house because I didn't set fire to it". Sure, you can take that position but it's damnably strange one to take in the circumstances.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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vorticism
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Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:20 pm

Re: A post EV era

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:23 pm
vorticism wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:32 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:18 pm
They are as accountable as everyone that bought the goods...
Now do sub-prime mortgages, payday loans, street drugs, etc. Some in the West did try to boycott or protest over the decades the more affordable imported goods because it was impossible to compete with them on labor cost. The poor will try to save money on their purchases inevitably; hence the ship of society does need some decent steering. Saying the passengers and the guys filling the boiler are partly to blame for hitting the iceberg is... odd?
But saying "I'm not doing anything to help because I didn't start it" is a bit like saying "I'm not going to throw water on my burning house because I didn't set fire to it". Sure, you can take that position but it's damnably strange one to take in the circumstances.
Not what I said; you're fabricating quotes again. You can use the quote function if you want to quote me. Regardless youre deflecting from the rebuttal. Can you defend the claim I was responding to? Damnably strange, heh, if you couldn't. Also if you keep saying the house is burning when it isn't the fire truck will stop showing up.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: A post EV era

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vorticism wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:42 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:23 pm
vorticism wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:32 pm


Now do sub-prime mortgages, payday loans, street drugs, etc. Some in the West did try to boycott or protest over the decades the more affordable imported goods because it was impossible to compete with them on labor cost. The poor will try to save money on their purchases inevitably; hence the ship of society does need some decent steering. Saying the passengers and the guys filling the boiler are partly to blame for hitting the iceberg is... odd?
But saying "I'm not doing anything to help because I didn't start it" is a bit like saying "I'm not going to throw water on my burning house because I didn't set fire to it". Sure, you can take that position but it's damnably strange one to take in the circumstances.
Not what I said; you're fabricating quotes again. You can use the quote function if you want to quote me. Regardless youre deflecting from the rebuttal. Can you defend the claim I was responding to? Damnably strange, heh, if you couldn't. Also if you keep saying the house is burning when it isn't the fire truck will stop showing up.
I wasn't quoting you. If I were, I'd have used the quote function. As for "fabricating quotes again", I'm not sure to what you are referring, as I haven't made up quotes from you at all.

Your rebuttal is nothing of the sort. Your argument appears to be that individuals that made a lot of money from steering the ship should be the ones that pay to solve any resulting problems. But if everyone on board went along with it, no one mutinied, etc., then all are, well, in the boat together. Also, to say "he caused us to sink so I'm not going to swim" [note: this is not me quoting you] seems a bit silly.

To continue your metaphor, it's no use saying "I can't see an iceberg so let's carry on at flank speed" [note: this is not me quoting you] when there are reports of icebergs and the ship is in an area that has had icebergs before.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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vorticism
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Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:20 pm

Re: A post EV era

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:04 pm
But if everyone on board went along with it...
Obviously they didn't or there wouldn't be political discourse as we've known it; however sidelined it may have been. Generally pro-national or pro-domestic types, whatever you would call them, non-economically-suicidal perhaps, were framed as isolationists or xenophobic (lol) for not wanting native industries to compete against foreign slave labor forces. Back to the claim I'm trying to get your defense of:
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:18 pm
They are as accountable as everyone that bought the goods...
Who deserves greater blame, the junkie or the drug dealer? What if the dealer is older or more wily? What if the addict is a child? Same for sub-prime mortgages; blame the seller or the financially inept buyer? It's a point about consent and modern governance. Deceivers ruling the deceived, with the deceived continually receiving the blame for the blowback of all the deceivers' actions. Time and again this is the defining characteristic of modern governance; don't forget we're in the era of information, psychology, psychological warfare (intel agencies w/o oversight), propaganda, and advertising.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: A post EV era

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Just to keep some perspective but not to diminish anthropological contribution, this is well worth the listen as it details the factors:
"The destructive eruption of Hunga Tonga Hunga Ha'apai which occurred in January of 2022 was the largest explosive eruption of the 21st century. New research into the eruption has revealed something completely surprising; instead of cooling the planet slightly like other prior large explosive eruptions have, the eruption instead will warm it."
And of course going back centuries, eruptions caused summers to disappear and no crops which killed many.


Greg Locock
Greg Locock
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Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:48 pm

Re: A post EV era

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Once upon a time a mythical country called Australialand had high CO2 emissions, and in particular made aluminium pots out of locally acquired coal and bauxite. Oh the emissions were high. Sadness was in the people of the land (some of them anyway).

The politicians decreed that henceforth they would get rid of the nasty aluminium pots and pans business, thereby reducing the CO2 emissions.

So instead Chinaland (a country of low CO2 emissions per capita) bought the coal and bauxite from Australialand, and burned the coal, and made aluminium, and made pots, which they then sold back to Australialand's unemployed people.

So, net result is more CO2 is emitted, and Australialand has lost an industry. But Austrialand's per capita CO2 emissions had reduced.

The Greens saw the results of their policies and declared that it was good. There was much rejoicing by the people of the land (well, some of them).