2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2023 9:13 am
CaribouBread wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2023 5:29 am
Stu wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:44 pm
The lower fuel load and less available power (averaged across the lap), along with what will probably be a DIS (Drag Induction System) for braking zones will lead to comparatively low downforce cars (or certainly more efficient cars).
I prefer your Drag Induction System (DIS) moniker - than 'active aero' a better reflection of reality and intended goals
well .....
more efficient means nothing other than the least laptime on the available fuel energy

to get the maximum recovery of KE we need increased braking time ie less downforce only at high speed
less DF at high speed doesn't necessarily mean more aerodynamic or other efficiency

we will need to be clear about the nature of the design approach that emerges
snappily categorising this now as DIS could be unhelpful
eg this isn't an air brake - and an air brake is exactly what isn't needed
Exactly so. An air brake is just wasted energy when they should be harvesting like crazy in the braking zone. Sadly, team politics mean that front axle regen isn't on the table, it seems, which is a real wasted opportunity.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Would it be fair to say that front recovery would not make much difference to the situation unless the rate of energy recovery is greater than energy deployment?

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Rodak wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:47 am
mzso wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2023 8:04 pm
wuzak wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:34 am
The fact that most of today's cars are missing paint to make it down to the 798kg minimum weight would suggest that getting too much lighter will be difficult.
Maybe extensive use of nanotube composites would allow substantial weight saves?
F1 teams are not on the bleeding edge of technology, they don't have the money or means to develop new technologies, rather they use systems already developed by others; in the case of carbon fiber, the aircraft industry. I seriously doubt you are going to find much of a weight reduction as resin is a major weight component of composite structures. When we did wet layups with graphite we weighed the resin and used bleed cloth to obviate excesses; that's why prepreg is so useful. Still, with prepreg one also uses bleed cloth.
I guess the other part of the composite needs to be replaced as well. I wonder if something significantly lighter compared to the typical epoxy resin is researched, experimented with.

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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CaribouBread wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2023 9:16 am
CaribouBread wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2023 8:50 am


There seems to be interesting new stuff in the article, but unfortunately its paywalled.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -getriebe/
Bit the bullet and bought a subscription

Important bits:

Teams have veto'd the 70 kg fuel, so now its back up to 100 kgs. I guess this is what Gruener means by 30 kg extra fuel to burn.

"Everyone" agrees to reduce wheelbase by 30 cm for now.

Symmonds thinks they could've added 2 complete MGU system within 18 kg weight limit. Teams didn't want front regen so now they have to burn fuel.

No new info on active aero in this article.
Doesn't seem paywalled right now. But, ugh... The same political sh*tshow as always. Come up with something, then abandon, reject, veto, compromise 2/3 of it, and end up with something that accomplishes nothing...
In this case the original idea sucked as well, so they made it even worse.

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Holm86
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
Mon Jul 24, 2023 9:25 pm
CaribouBread wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2023 9:16 am
CaribouBread wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2023 8:50 am


There seems to be interesting new stuff in the article, but unfortunately its paywalled.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -getriebe/
Bit the bullet and bought a subscription

Important bits:

Teams have veto'd the 70 kg fuel, so now its back up to 100 kgs. I guess this is what Gruener means by 30 kg extra fuel to burn.

"Everyone" agrees to reduce wheelbase by 30 cm for now.

Symmonds thinks they could've added 2 complete MGU system within 18 kg weight limit. Teams didn't want front regen so now they have to burn fuel.

No new info on active aero in this article.
Doesn't seem paywalled right now. But, ugh... The same political sh*tshow as always. Come up with something, then abandon, reject, veto, compromise 2/3 of it, and end up with something that accomplishes nothing...
In this case the original idea sucked as well, so they made it even worse.
It also says the gearbox should have 6 gears instead of 8, something I've personally wanted for a long time ...

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Holm86 wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2023 3:10 pm
It also says the gearbox should have 6 gears instead of 8, something I've personally wanted for a long time ...
Why? Why is 6 gears better than 8?
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Holm86
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2023 3:28 pm
Holm86 wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2023 3:10 pm
It also says the gearbox should have 6 gears instead of 8, something I've personally wanted for a long time ...
Why? Why is 6 gears better than 8?
With 8 gears the ratios are simply too close, a bad shift doesnt really cost anything.
With fewer ratios longer apart, not shifting at the right time could be costly on a lap.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Holm86 wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2023 6:13 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2023 3:28 pm
Holm86 wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2023 3:10 pm
It also says the gearbox should have 6 gears instead of 8, something I've personally wanted for a long time ...
Why? Why is 6 gears better than 8?
With 8 gears the ratios are simply too close, a bad shift doesnt really cost anything.
With fewer ratios longer apart, not shifting at the right time could be costly on a lap.
the 8 is to use the same CWP ratio and the same 8 spur gear pair ratios for every race every year
so not as close as we would traditionally expect 8 to be

the 8 is better with the MGU-K etc because it keeps the voltage and current closer to the best-efficiency values and ....
its better load matching allows eg slightly longer at full regen power during braking as tyre grip falls with DF


btw for fanciers of shorter cars .....
here's a short wheelbase car that was F1-legal
(until 1961 when iirc a minimum wheelbase was introduced to keep Formula Junior cars out of F1)
https://500race.org/marques/monaco/

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Rodak wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:47 am
mzso wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2023 8:04 pm
wuzak wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:34 am
The fact that most of today's cars are missing paint to make it down to the 798kg minimum weight would suggest that getting too much lighter will be difficult.
Maybe extensive use of nanotube composites would allow substantial weight saves?
F1 teams are not on the bleeding edge of technology, they don't have the money or means to develop new technologies, rather they use systems already developed by others; in the case of carbon fiber, the aircraft industry. I seriously doubt you are going to find much of a weight reduction as resin is a major weight component of composite structures. When we did wet layups with graphite we weighed the resin and used bleed cloth to obviate excesses; that's why prepreg is so useful. Still, with prepreg one also uses bleed cloth.
I have doubts about the weight claims of the resin after watching this video. Especially the pre-preg stuff. Which just looks like plain woven carbon fiber that's a bit sticky.

As for technology, it wouldn't be the first time they pushed for something that's not developed yet.

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organic
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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I'm sure he has an agenda but Horner is claiming they expect 30kg more cooling will be required for the new cars
"One of the big problems with regard to 2026 is weight. We expect another 30 kilograms more for cooling, and that for cars that are already reaching the weight of sports cars."
https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... t-23080803

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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organic wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2023 11:49 am
I'm sure he has an agenda but Horner is claiming they expect 30kg more cooling will be required for the new cars
"One of the big problems with regard to 2026 is weight. We expect another 30 kilograms more for cooling, and that for cars that are already reaching the weight of sports cars."
https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... t-23080803
Horner has been briefing against the new rules for some time now. Suggests either RBPT are struggling or he's bluffing as they did with the PU freeze "because Honda's leaving" just before they basically didn't. But it helped RB lock in a slight advantage.

Such is the way with F1 politics - they all do it.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2023 12:31 pm
organic wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2023 11:49 am
I'm sure he has an agenda but Horner is claiming they expect 30kg more cooling will be required for the new cars
"One of the big problems with regard to 2026 is weight. We expect another 30 kilograms more for cooling, and that for cars that are already reaching the weight of sports cars."
https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... t-23080803
Horner has been briefing against the new rules for some time now. Suggests either RBPT are struggling or he's bluffing as they did with the PU freeze "because Honda's leaving" just before they basically didn't.
I rather think some would like to imagine they are struggling...maybe it helps...oh never mind...

The reality is that RBPT is staffed by the same people who were working at Ferrari, Renault, Mercedes, and Honda. The PU budget cap has forced the other organizations to become smaller, to RB's benefit. It's something I've shown concern about in the past, but having thought through it, anyone expecting them to fail will be disappointed.

For those who are interested...all of Horner's comments about the PUs thus far have tracked. When he said that he was worried that there would not be enough harvesting opportunities to sustain the 350kw electrical system and that a lower electrical split should be considered, the FIA have now announced that the fuel capacity will be increased by 30kg for the specific purpose of burning fuel in order to generate the missing electricity:

AMUS: https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -getriebe/

Now you wonder what other "oversights" have been left in the regulations.


Sulayem implies in that article from Organic that it's not just RB who have been vocal about issues with the current form of the '26 PU regulations so perhaps one can find clarity of thinking in that...

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2023 4:04 pm
Sulayem implies in that article from Organic that it's not just RB who have been vocal about issues with the current form of the '26 PU regulations so perhaps one can find clarity of thinking in that...
You missed the important part off when you quoted me:
Such is the way with F1 politics - they all do it.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2023 5:26 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2023 4:04 pm
Sulayem implies in that article from Organic that it's not just RB who have been vocal about issues with the current form of the '26 PU regulations so perhaps one can find clarity of thinking in that...
You missed the important part off when you quoted me:
Such is the way with F1 politics - they all do it.
I don't get it...Saying it's all politics implies that there are no legitimate technical concerns with these regulations.

The fact that the FIA have now increased the fuel allocation by 30kg, a 40% increase of the original determination, suggest otherwise....

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2023 5:41 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2023 5:26 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2023 4:04 pm
Sulayem implies in that article from Organic that it's not just RB who have been vocal about issues with the current form of the '26 PU regulations so perhaps one can find clarity of thinking in that...
You missed the important part off when you quoted me:
Such is the way with F1 politics - they all do it.
I don't get it...Saying it's all politics implies that there are no legitimate technical concerns with these regulations.

The fact that the FIA have now increased the fuel allocation by 30kg, a 40% increase of the original determination, suggest otherwise....
Yes, but the moans are political. It doesn't matter that the fuel allocation has increased - it's the same for all and thus shouldn't matter. However, it's an issue for the individual teams for various reasons be it PU deficit, suspension deficit, etc., whatever it is that their team will struggle with as a result of the changes. So the moans are political.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.