2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
mzso
mzso
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Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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CHT wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:55 pm
mzso wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:30 pm
You can't interpret what others say. Or refuse to.
F1 gets the views and the monea because it's F1, which FE isn't.
Sim racing doesn't matter because it's not car racing and definitely not F1.
So you're afraid of new manufacturers beating the old dinosaurs? Then you don't care for racing at all...
Just watching old brands making a lot of noise pollution.
There are scientific reasons and commercial facts and figures why F1 is not ready for full electric and I hope you can take some time to digest that information first before trying to put cart before horses.

Ultimate F1 is about technology and science, not based on some fancy ideas and trying to reinvent the wheel of motorsports entertainment.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59556016

https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/37 ... le-science

https://frontofficesports.com/formula-1 ... Domenicali.
There are no "scientific", or commercial reasons. And you won't accomplish much linking official propaganda on a technical forum.

There's only the backward thinking, tradition, fear, and investments.

CHT
CHT
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Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:24 am

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

Post

mzso wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:28 pm
CHT wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:55 pm
mzso wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:30 pm
You can't interpret what others say. Or refuse to.
F1 gets the views and the monea because it's F1, which FE isn't.
Sim racing doesn't matter because it's not car racing and definitely not F1.
So you're afraid of new manufacturers beating the old dinosaurs? Then you don't care for racing at all...
Just watching old brands making a lot of noise pollution.
There are scientific reasons and commercial facts and figures why F1 is not ready for full electric and I hope you can take some time to digest that information first before trying to put cart before horses.

Ultimate F1 is about technology and science, not based on some fancy ideas and trying to reinvent the wheel of motorsports entertainment.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59556016

https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/37 ... le-science

https://frontofficesports.com/formula-1 ... Domenicali.
There are no "scientific", or commercial reasons. And you won't accomplish much linking official propaganda on a technical forum.

There's only the backward thinking, tradition, fear, and investments.
Companies such as Audi BMW and recently Merc have all quit Formula E in recent years.
I don't suppose these companies are backward-thinking or anything of that sort. Toto has also given the reason why Merc decided to leave Formula E despite championship success.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/f1/news-mer ... g%20season.

The fact that Formula E is considering doing a "30 sec" power pit stop is a scientific reason why Formula 1 is not ready to go full electric, and no one should try to go against the natural law of physics to say that it is ok for formula 1 to switch from competing for tenths and hundredth of sec or <3 sec pitstop to doing >30 sec "refueling" in order to spice up the race.

The are many videos of Tesla Cybertruck doing drag racing with supercars circulating online, and this is exactly the reason why full electric is not suitable for F1.

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Zynerji
109
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

Post

CHT wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:22 am
mzso wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:28 pm
CHT wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:55 pm


There are scientific reasons and commercial facts and figures why F1 is not ready for full electric and I hope you can take some time to digest that information first before trying to put cart before horses.

Ultimate F1 is about technology and science, not based on some fancy ideas and trying to reinvent the wheel of motorsports entertainment.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59556016

https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/37 ... le-science

https://frontofficesports.com/formula-1 ... Domenicali.
There are no "scientific", or commercial reasons. And you won't accomplish much linking official propaganda on a technical forum.

There's only the backward thinking, tradition, fear, and investments.
Companies such as Audi BMW and recently Merc have all quit Formula E in recent years.
I don't suppose these companies are backward-thinking or anything of that sort. Toto has also given the reason why Merc decided to leave Formula E despite championship success.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/f1/news-mer ... g%20season.

The fact that Formula E is considering doing a "30 sec" power pit stop is a scientific reason why Formula 1 is not ready to go full electric, and no one should try to go against the natural law of physics to say that it is ok for formula 1 to switch from competing for tenths and hundredth of sec or <3 sec pitstop to doing >30 sec "refueling" in order to spice up the race.

The are many videos of Tesla Cybertruck doing drag racing with supercars circulating online, and this is exactly the reason why full electric is not suitable for F1.
Jet driven MGUK powering electric drivetrain is better anyways.... Make it silly, and make them incorporate it with a 7 spd manual gearbox...

wuzak
wuzak
447
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:54 pm
wuzak wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:50 pm
mzso wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:38 am

Sure, but that would mean 5 minute pit stops. Unless they're going back to car swaps, which defeats the purpose of the whole thing.
600kW charge for about 30s is the plan.
So that's around 5KWh? Is that good for much?
Gen 3 battery capacity is 47kWh.

There is some weight saving from reducing the battery capacity.

Of interest to the 2026 F1 car discussion, Formula E has 250kW MGU on front axle and 350kW MGU on rear axle. Maximum recovery is 600kW and maximum deployment is 350kW.

IMO F1 would need the same proportion of deployment/regeneration power to make the 2026 ERS rules make sense, and for there to be no need for fuel burring to generate electrical power.

mzso
mzso
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Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:51 pm
mzso wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:54 pm
wuzak wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:50 pm

600kW charge for about 30s is the plan.
So that's around 5KWh? Is that good for much?
600 kW for 30 sec is 804 bhp for 30 sec
with recovery that's enough for 1 lap
Okay. But FE has the fraction of that power.
wuzak wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:58 am
Gen 3 battery capacity is 47kWh.

There is some weight saving from reducing the battery capacity.

Of interest to the 2026 F1 car discussion, Formula E has 250kW MGU on front axle and 350kW MGU on rear axle. Maximum recovery is 600kW and maximum deployment is 350kW.

IMO F1 would need the same proportion of deployment/regeneration power to make the 2026 ERS rules make sense, and for there to be no need for fuel burring to generate electrical power.
That still seems rather little. So what, five pit stops then? I'd expect they want at least twice the energy than the battery capacity. Two 5kWh pit stops is barely a top-up.
Last edited by mzso on Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

mzso
mzso
60
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

Post

CHT wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:22 am
mzso wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:28 pm
CHT wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:55 pm


There are scientific reasons and commercial facts and figures why F1 is not ready for full electric and I hope you can take some time to digest that information first before trying to put cart before horses.

Ultimate F1 is about technology and science, not based on some fancy ideas and trying to reinvent the wheel of motorsports entertainment.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59556016

https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/37 ... le-science

https://frontofficesports.com/formula-1 ... Domenicali.
There are no "scientific", or commercial reasons. And you won't accomplish much linking official propaganda on a technical forum.

There's only the backward thinking, tradition, fear, and investments.
Companies such as Audi BMW and recently Merc have all quit Formula E in recent years.
I don't suppose these companies are backward-thinking or anything of that sort. Toto has also given the reason why Merc decided to leave Formula E despite championship success.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/f1/news-mer ... g%20season.

The fact that Formula E is considering doing a "30 sec" power pit stop is a scientific reason why Formula 1 is not ready to go full electric, and no one should try to go against the natural law of physics to say that it is ok for formula 1 to switch from competing for tenths and hundredth of sec or <3 sec pitstop to doing >30 sec "refueling" in order to spice up the race.

The are many videos of Tesla Cybertruck doing drag racing with supercars circulating online, and this is exactly the reason why full electric is not suitable for F1.
That's neither scientific, nor a reason for anything.

Mind you, F1 had refueling for decades... And it wasn't forced by regulation but "scientific" facts. Which is, that they were faster in total with pit stops and carrying around less weight.

I can see F1 working with battery swaps. Even more so with fuel cells. There's no "scientific" reason they couldn't work. It only needs invested time and money.

wuzak
wuzak
447
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:42 am

That still seems rather little. So what, five pit stops then? I'd expect they want at least twice the energy than the battery capacity. Two 5kWh pit stops is barely a top-up.
It's around 10% of their battery capacity.

Which saves about 10% of the battery weight compared to no recharging.

CHT
CHT
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Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:24 am

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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I just read that F1 FIA and Extreme H has set up a working group to explore Hydrogen energy for future of motorsports

I reckon this is likely the future for F1

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jjn9128
770
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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CHT wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:30 pm
I just read that F1 FIA and Extreme H has set up a working group to explore Hydrogen energy for future of motorsports

I reckon this is likely the future for F1
Extreme H is preparation H on steroids?
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

CHT
CHT
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Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:24 am

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

Post

jjn9128 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:34 pm
CHT wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:30 pm
I just read that F1 FIA and Extreme H has set up a working group to explore Hydrogen energy for future of motorsports

I reckon this is likely the future for F1
Extreme H is preparation H on steroids?
I reckon sport car manufacturers are more inclined towards hydrogen combustion engines instead of EV.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/other/f ... r-AA1l9iSc

mzso
mzso
60
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

Post

CHT wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:30 pm
I just read that F1 FIA and Extreme H has set up a working group to explore Hydrogen energy for future of motorsports

I reckon this is likely the future for F1

I reckon sport car manufacturers are more inclined towards hydrogen combustion engines instead of EV.

Source?

PS: Hydrogen is best used with a fuel cell.Wasting half of it in an ICE is insane, but this is the FIA, so who knows.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:21 pm
... Hydrogen is best used with a fuel cell.Wasting half of it in an ICE is insane ,,,,
this is not road car use
fuel cells would waste about the same % as a lean hydrogen ICE in race use

fuel cells produce quite a lot of heat - this maybe usable (if 'compounded' with some heat 'engine' or expansion stage)
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mzso
mzso
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Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:11 pm
mzso wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:21 pm
... Hydrogen is best used with a fuel cell.Wasting half of it in an ICE is insane ,,,,
this is not road car use
fuel cells would waste about the same % as a lean hydrogen ICE in race use

fuel cells produce quite a lot of heat - this maybe usable by some heat 'engine' or expansion stage
Fuel cells are quite a lot more efficient. Around twice as much. And as you said some energy recovery is possible, increasing the efficiency further.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:30 pm
Fuel cells are quite a lot more efficient. Around twice as much. And as you said some energy recovery is possible, increasing the efficiency further.
let's try this one more time .....
hydrogen fueling of traditional ICE engines gives poor efficiency because these ICEs have poor efficiency at low% power
so yes hydrogen fuel cells are 'twice as efficient' for road use

but in hydrogen-fueled F1 its 'heat dilution'-type ICE would be 50% efficient (or 55% efficient with MGU-H)
(hydrogen could even be run adiabatically - ie so lean that no heat dump via coolant is needed)

CHT
CHT
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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The problem with hydrogen may been in the fuel tank capacity. If F1 adopts this technology it will require refueling, which may be tricky. But then again, this is something the automotive giants will need to figure out to remain relevant.