2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2024 4:46 am
The 2014 rules. While 5.2.3 speaks only of out/inputs and storage of electrical power, 1.25 says ''motor generator unit-kinetic (MGU-K). The kinetic motor generator unit is the electrical machine mechanically linked to the 'DRIVETRAIN' as part of the ERS''. And 5.2.7 says ''MGU-K may only recover energy from or give back energy to the car via its mechanical link to the 'DRIVETRAIN'. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft and may be clutched''. Restarting a stalled engine by MGU-K. The first known case of a driver restarting after engine had stalled was that of Massa on the starting grid of the 2016 Malaysian GP. As per regulations when his engine stalled before the redlights went off, he signaled with both his hands and a yellow flag was promptly shown, when his engineer instructed him how to, he used one hand and managed to restart his stalled engine by MGU-K and the yellow flag was pulled off just before the red light went off so the race was started, BUT possible future engine restarts on the starting grid were killed by race director driver briefing at the next GP instructing drivers that they must signal a stalled engine on the starting grid by rising both hands. After that there was other drivers restarting their engines by MGU-K, The next one was Vettel when he restarted on the weighing scales before being pushed off the scales, he was fined for damaging the scales but not for restarting because this restart was not on the starting grid and so he did not need to rise both hands. Kime also restarted sometime after that but during a race and not on starting grid.
What rules are you referring to?
1.25 Motor Generator Unit - Kinetic (MGU-K) :
The Kinetic Motor Generator Unit is the electrical machine mechanically linked to the drive train as part of the ERS.

The entirety of section 5.2 is:

5.2 Other means of propulsion and energy recovery :
5.2.1 The use of any device, other than the engine described in 5.1 above, and one MGU-K, to propel the car, is not permitted.

5.2.2 Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations.
When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing line, however, when entering the pits the lap will end, and the next one will begin, at the start of the pit lane (as defined in the F1 Sporting Regulations).
Electrical DC measurements will be used to verify that the energy and power requirements are being respected.
A fixed efficiency correction of 0.95 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K power.

5.2.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.
The rotational speed of the MGU-K may not exceed 50,000rpm.
The maximum torque of the MGU-K may not exceed 200Nm. The torque will be referenced to the crankshaft speed and the fixed efficiency correction defined in Article 5.2.2 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K torque.
The laminate thickness of the MGU-K may not be less than 0.05mm.

5.2.4 The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the exhaust turbine of a pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched.
The rotational speed of the MGU-H may not exceed 125,000rpm.

5.2.5 Cars must be fitted with homologated sensors which provide all necessary signals to the FIA data logger in order to verify the requirements above are being respected.

There is no 5.2.7.

I was responding to the statement:
saviour stivala wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2024 5:48 pm
Which means that in 2014 the MGU-K could have been linked anywhere between the fron of the crankshaft ands the rear wheels.
Even in 2014 rules published in 2012 did not have a 5.2.7., and required the MGUK to connect to the powertrain before the main clutch.

There is no mention that the MGUK could be clutched, though there is for the MGUH (5.2.4).

saviour stivala
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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2014 FIA F1 technical regulations. Article definitions - 1.25 ENERGY RECOVERY SYSTEMS "motor generator - kinetic (MGU-K). The kinetic motor generator unit is the electrical machine mechanically linked to the drive train as past of the ERS". ARTICLE 5 POWER UNIT. 5.2.7 "The MGU-K may only recover energy from or give back to the car via its mechanical link to the drive train. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft and may be clutched''.

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2024 10:47 am
Well, they don't need to last very long, seven races, if I remember correctly, and they don't do full charge/recharge cycles. Also some of them still have reasonable cycle-life, 1000-2000.
So, potentially, some of them might be used.
This season it will be 12 races per pack, to avoid penalties. Indeed, they are most likely run between 30-80% to allow quickest charging and discharging power, but this high power also has adverse effect on them.

Ultimately, rules are written in a way that makes cells irrelevant. 4MJ is not a big amount, only 1111Wh of capacity. In theory, 4-5kg of LiPo cells satisfy this (being run from 100% to almost 0% SOC), but rules require the pack to be between 20-25kg. No more and no less, and honestly that sucks. This will go up to 30-35kg for 2026.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2024 3:27 pm
2014 FIA F1 technical regulations. Article definitions - 1.25 ENERGY RECOVERY SYSTEMS "motor generator - kinetic (MGU-K). The kinetic motor generator unit is the electrical machine mechanically linked to the drive train as past of the ERS". ARTICLE 5 POWER UNIT. 5.2.7 "The MGU-K may only recover energy from or give back to the car via its mechanical link to the drive train. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft and may be clutched''.
I have 2014 regulations published 5 December 2012 and 23 January 2014, as well as the 2016 regulations published on 30 September 2015, none of them have a section 5.2.7 (or 5.2.6) and the only mention of "clutched" is in reference to the MGU-H.

The 2021 regulations published in June 2021 also does not have a 5.2.7, and only mentions the term "clutched" in reference to the MGU-H in 5.2.4.

The 2022 regulations have a few changes, so Article 5.2 is Engine specification, and article 5.3 is
Other means of propulsion and energy recovery. It does have a 5.3.7 clause:

5.3.7 Any non-ERS energy storage and components supplied by it will be considered an ancillary and subject to Article 5.14.1.

saviour stivala
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Cannot do otherwise as I have been forced to repeat. "I was quoting the 2014 FIA FI technical regulations'' and I stand with what I quoted.

wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:16 am
Cannot do otherwise as I have been forced to repeat. "I was quoting the 2014 FIA FI technical regulations'' and I stand with what I quoted.
Which version, when was it published?

saviour stivala
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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wuzak wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 9:20 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:16 am
Cannot do otherwise as I have been forced to repeat. "I was quoting the 2014 FIA FI technical regulations'' and I stand with what I quoted.
Which version, when was it published?
All you have to do to find out is Google "2014 FIA FI technical regulations".

wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:12 am
wuzak wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 9:20 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:16 am
Cannot do otherwise as I have been forced to repeat. "I was quoting the 2014 FIA FI technical regulations'' and I stand with what I quoted.
Which version, when was it published?
All you have to do to find out is Google "2014 FIA FI technical regulations".
Published 14 July 2011.

The ones I have are from 2012 and 2014, later versions.

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2024 6:10 pm
mzso wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2024 10:47 am
Well, they don't need to last very long, seven races, if I remember correctly, and they don't do full charge/recharge cycles. Also some of them still have reasonable cycle-life, 1000-2000.
So, potentially, some of them might be used.
This season it will be 12 races per pack, to avoid penalties. Indeed, they are most likely run between 30-80% to allow quickest charging and discharging power, but this high power also has adverse effect on them.

Ultimately, rules are written in a way that makes cells irrelevant. 4MJ is not a big amount, only 1111Wh of capacity. In theory, 4-5kg of LiPo cells satisfy this (being run from 100% to almost 0% SOC), but rules require the pack to be between 20-25kg. No more and no less, and honestly that sucks. This will go up to 30-35kg for 2026.
That's rather dumb, seeing as they are claiming to try to save weight.

saviour stivala
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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wuzak wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:50 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:12 am
wuzak wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 9:20 am


Which version, when was it published?
All you have to do to find out is Google "2014 FIA FI technical regulations".
Published 14 July 2011.

The ones I have are from 2012 and 2014, later versions.
The 'one/s' (technical regulations) we on here can talk about are those that we can get hold-of as published officially by the FIA-the regulating body. What the FIA-regulating body publishes is archived and one can obtain on the web. The FIA -regulating body does not remove anything that it publishes and archives but only amends/updates which are also archived. Major changes that greats a new formula are not and cannot be implemented from one day to the other, and final amended ones can be introduced. What you have been quoting/claiming to have - the wording from 2012-2014 does not exist in/on the FIA-the regulating body archives.

wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2024 6:10 pm
mzso wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2024 10:47 am
Well, they don't need to last very long, seven races, if I remember correctly, and they don't do full charge/recharge cycles. Also some of them still have reasonable cycle-life, 1000-2000.
So, potentially, some of them might be used.
This season it will be 12 races per pack, to avoid penalties. Indeed, they are most likely run between 30-80% to allow quickest charging and discharging power, but this high power also has adverse effect on them.

Ultimately, rules are written in a way that makes cells irrelevant. 4MJ is not a big amount, only 1111Wh of capacity. In theory, 4-5kg of LiPo cells satisfy this (being run from 100% to almost 0% SOC), but rules require the pack to be between 20-25kg. No more and no less, and honestly that sucks. This will go up to 30-35kg for 2026.
The 20-25kg for the current rules are, essentially, for the cells only.

The 35kg for the 2026 rules includes more items, such as the battery case, and some electronic controllers.

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:22 pm
That's rather dumb, seeing as they are claiming to try to save weight.
I think I read somewhere the first idea was 50kg for batteries in total, so this is much better :mrgreen:

wuzak wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:28 pm
The 20-25kg for the current rules are, essentially, for the cells only.

The 35kg for the 2026 rules includes more items, such as the battery case, and some electronic controllers.
So in the end it will be almost the same weight? I'm ok with that
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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FW17
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2024 8:28 am
mzso wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:22 pm
That's rather dumb, seeing as they are claiming to try to save weight.
I think I read somewhere the first idea was 50kg for batteries in total, so this is much better :mrgreen:

wuzak wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:28 pm
The 20-25kg for the current rules are, essentially, for the cells only.

The 35kg for the 2026 rules includes more items, such as the battery case, and some electronic controllers.
So in the end it will be almost the same weight? I'm ok with that
Formula E battery pack weighs 284 kgs for 47 kw which includes a structural casing, internal BMS etc. This is 0.165kwh/kg

2.5kwh ~ 9mj ~ could be about 15 kg

There must be some reason why the pack weight allowance in F1 is so high. some of the reasons I can think off is ....
>the inverter (CE) could be part of the same pack, but not sure how they can be changed separately
>cooling requirement much higher as all the cells are power optimized meant for quick charge and discharge while the Formula E battery pack has separate modules for 47kwh of energy optimized cells and a small pack of power optimized cells for the regen braking
Last edited by FW17 on Tue Jan 23, 2024 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2024 8:28 am
mzso wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:22 pm
That's rather dumb, seeing as they are claiming to try to save weight.
I think I read somewhere the first idea was 50kg for batteries in total, so this is much better :mrgreen:

wuzak wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:28 pm
The 20-25kg for the current rules are, essentially, for the cells only.

The 35kg for the 2026 rules includes more items, such as the battery case, and some electronic controllers.
So in the end it will be almost the same weight? I'm ok with that
If they get it to the minimum weight, it will be approximately the same.

5.2.3 ES main enclosure (ESME)
External structure that encloses at least the elements listed in Article 5.19.7 and allows their installation inside of the ERS Reference Volume (RV-PU-ERS). It may be composed of elements rigidly linked to form a continuous closed volume.

5.19.9 The minimum mass for the ES Main Enclosure PU Mass group elements as defined in Appendix 3 to these Regulations is 35.0kg. The procedure which will be used to determine this value may be found in the Appendix to the Technical and Sporting Regulations.

These are items listed in Appendix 3 as being part of the ESME mass
  • ES Main Enclosure (ESME)
  • Energy Store
  • Regulatory DC sensors and Insulation monitoring device
  • Safety devices (Fuses, Contactors, MSD, relays)
  • Busbars, connectors conductors, looms or any other component fitted inside the ESME that is not explicitly mentioned in any other rows of this table.
  • CU-K
  • DC-DC Unit
  • Non ICE-mounted ERS cooling system including pumps, associated motors, actuators, associated brackets, fixings, tubes, hoses
The following item could be counted as part of ESME mass or ICE mass
  • General electrical devices including Power distribution board, Driver for PU electric pumps, LV fuse box and any electronic box exclusively used for PU functionalities.
Compared to the current requirements:
5.5.3 The total mass of the part of the ES that stores energy, i.e. the cells (including any clamping plates) and electrical connections between cells, must be no less than 20kg and must not exceed 25kg.

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FW17
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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F1 should have kept the battery pack out of the Power Unit. Customer teams should have been allowed to make there own custom packs with other than OEM partners. Just like teams could use different fuels and lubricants but with same engine, battery packs also could have been a cheaper option for teams to collaborate with other suppliers than buying from OEM partner.

Merc > Merc ICE > Petronas fuel > Merc A123 battery pack
Williams > Merc ICE > Total fuel > LG battery pack
Mclaren > Merc ICE > BASF fuel > Panasonic battery pack