2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
DChemTech
DChemTech
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Location: Delft, NL

Re: Alarming findings in simulator running of a 2026 car.

Post

Cs98 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2024 5:28 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2024 5:16 pm
Cs98 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2024 5:02 pm

Of course it is causing the issue. The car is chronically underpowered and all of these extreme active aero "solutions" are only trying to mask that core issue.

Besides, active aero on the front wing sounds like a nightmare. Any sort of damage (on the one part that always gets damaged) is race over, and I don't see the wing being changeable mid race if it's got active aero.
The car is not spinning on the straight because it is underpowered. It is spinning because of poor aero choices. Those choices were made as apparently slower cars are apparently not acceptable, but that does not mean that spinning on the straight is an unavoidable consequence of the engine formula.

Anyway, if you really want to delve into the issue of 'we do not accept slower cars and should go to great lengths to avoid that', the real issue (not the cause) is 'what is the objective of F1'. Is it road relevant tech development, or is it to be the fastest formula and have a high entertainment value? Because already for years these things are mutually exclusive.
And those poor aero choices are necessary because the car is underpowered. No one is saying that the spinning is unavoidable, we are saying it will come at a great cost to the speed and by extension entertainment. And you may not feel the need for speed in F1, but F1 clearly cares a lot judging by how badly they are trying to compensate for it. And they are right, F1 isn't the most popular motorsport in the world because it's "kind of fast". 2014 was a lesson in that regard, and 2026 looks to be worse.

Btw, what is the road relevance of using your ICE as a genny?
I presume the choice for more electric comes from a desire to be 'road relevant' in tech development, as F1 used to be in its prime. But 'road relevant' these days (minimal emissions) is far from entertaining (fast and powerful). So yeah, sticking with perceived road relevance will mean making concessions on the entertainment front. That is a choice for f1 management to make, and then to come up with a workable platform to cope with that (at which front they are currently failing seemingly).

I agree that actually a hybrid has very little road relevance still - full electric would be the way to go for that. But in the end, what F1 should just accept that it's not the pinnacle of car technology development, and just make their choices on entertainment value. As long as it's clear to the kids that the product is not something they should aspire their road car to be.

TeamKoolGreen
TeamKoolGreen
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Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2024 12:49 am

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

Post

^ Full electric would not be the way to go for "road relevance". Electric vehicles are not out selling ICE anymore. Toyota is the biggest auto maker and they don't even offer an EV.

https://fortune.com/2024/02/08/toyota-h ... cles-hype/

Everything is reverting back to hybrid. Which F1 already is and has been since 2014. So this whole 50% electric idea was totally unnecessary.

Ah but Audi demanded it. Yes. The same Audi that will pull out of F1 after getting dusted by Mercedes. Because Mercedes knows how to build these complicated and expensive contraptions. Im surprised Renault has lasted this long after they also demanded hybrid. And have nothing to show for it but tire tracks on their back.

The ultimate irony in it all is that a fizzy drinks company is building its own engines. Which shows that F1 doesn't need to cave to the demands of big auto.
Last edited by TeamKoolGreen on Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

DChemTech
DChemTech
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Location: Delft, NL

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

Post

TeamKoolGreen wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:05 am
^ Full electric would not be the way to go for "road relevance". Electric vehicles are not out selling ICE anymore. Toyota is the biggest auto maker and they don't even offer an EV.

https://fortune.com/2024/02/08/toyota-h ... cles-hype/

Everything is reverting back to hybrid. Which F1 already is and has been since 2014. So this whole 50% electric idea was totally unnecessary.
That people are not (yet) buying predominantly electric cars based on a mix of prices being somewhat high still, disinformation, poor political choices and an ill-informed idea of what a regular consumer would actually need from a car, doesn't mean it's not the long-term way to go. ICEs will be phased out in many countries in the near future, and for good reasons.

TeamKoolGreen
TeamKoolGreen
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

Post

DChemTech wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:10 am
TeamKoolGreen wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:05 am
^ Full electric would not be the way to go for "road relevance". Electric vehicles are not out selling ICE anymore. Toyota is the biggest auto maker and they don't even offer an EV.

https://fortune.com/2024/02/08/toyota-h ... cles-hype/

Everything is reverting back to hybrid. Which F1 already is and has been since 2014. So this whole 50% electric idea was totally unnecessary.
That people are not (yet) buying predominantly electric cars based on a mix of prices being somewhat high still, disinformation, poor political choices and an ill-informed idea of what a regular consumer would actually need from a car, doesn't mean it's not the long-term way to go. ICEs will be phased out in many countries in the near future, and for good reasons.
EVs have their applications. But the whole EV grand takeover and compete phase out of internal combustion is not happening. That was the buzz in 2022. But it's 2024. Govt's have scaled back their plans to eliminate ice which wasn't realistic in the first place.

What is your problem with hybrids ?

TeamKoolGreen
TeamKoolGreen
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

Post

mzso wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:23 am
TeamKoolGreen wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 1:48 am
100% electric would cause a split in F1 that would rival the damage done to Indycar by its split. So no. 100% electric would be the furthest thing from ideal. But this 50% idea could also get some teams wondering about new series that just used normal engines.
Let's not make biases into fantasy....
If you can't see the makings of a split with the road F1 is on then you're blind.

2026 is creeping up. Red Bull tried to warn that this engine idea was flawed. There will be a big winner and a lot of losers

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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DChemTech wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:10 am
... people are not (yet) buying predominantly electric cars ....
people can't buy predominantly electric cars until electricity is predominantly carbon-free and predominantly abundant

DChemTech
DChemTech
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Location: Delft, NL

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

Post

TeamKoolGreen wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:21 am
DChemTech wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:10 am
TeamKoolGreen wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:05 am
^ Full electric would not be the way to go for "road relevance". Electric vehicles are not out selling ICE anymore. Toyota is the biggest auto maker and they don't even offer an EV.

https://fortune.com/2024/02/08/toyota-h ... cles-hype/

Everything is reverting back to hybrid. Which F1 already is and has been since 2014. So this whole 50% electric idea was totally unnecessary.
That people are not (yet) buying predominantly electric cars based on a mix of prices being somewhat high still, disinformation, poor political choices and an ill-informed idea of what a regular consumer would actually need from a car, doesn't mean it's not the long-term way to go. ICEs will be phased out in many countries in the near future, and for good reasons.
EVs have their applications. But the whole EV grand takeover and compete phase out of internal combustion is not happening. That was the buzz in 2022. But it's 2024. Govt's have scaled back their plans to eliminate ice which wasn't realistic in the first place.

What is your problem with hybrids ?
my 'problem' with hybrids is that they still use fossil fuel, and that will need to phase out on very short notice. Sure ICEs will still be around for a long time, but they are increasingly irrelevant for new cars.
That people elect stupid governments with stupid plans crawling back on necessary actions does not change that.
And no, electricity does not need to be largely carbon-free for EVs to make sense. In fact, even with a mostly-fossil power production, EVs outperform ICEs.

mzso
mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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DChemTech wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:44 am
But 'road relevant' these days (minimal emissions) is far from entertaining (fast and powerful).
I fail to see how fast and powerful be analogous to entertainment. We'd be watching jets flying around.
It seems more like F1 is too fast to be particularly entertaining to watch. Too little margin to attack to many developments for performance that is a detriment to competition,resulting in lengthy cars and turbulence.

mzso
mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

Post

TeamKoolGreen wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:05 am
^ Full electric would not be the way to go for "road relevance". Electric vehicles are not out selling ICE anymore. Toyota is the biggest auto maker and they don't even offer an EV.

https://fortune.com/2024/02/08/toyota-h ... cles-hype/

Everything is reverting back to hybrid. Which F1 already is and has been since 2014. So this whole 50% electric idea was totally unnecessary.
None of it supports your assertion of EV not being road relevant. Some of it is outright wrong. Nothing is reverting back.

EVs is the direction technological evolution takes us, time to cope with it.
The time of vehicles destroying you lungs and health in general is nearing its end.
TeamKoolGreen wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:21 am
EVs have their applications. But the whole EV grand takeover and compete phase out of internal combustion is not happening. That was the buzz in 2022. But it's 2024. Govt's have scaled back their plans to eliminate ice which wasn't realistic in the first place.
Precisely. It's 2024 and not 2034 or 2040.
TeamKoolGreen wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:25 am
If you can't see the makings of a split with the road F1 is on then you're blind.

2026 is creeping up. Red Bull tried to warn that this engine idea was flawed. There will be a big winner and a lot of losers
Hah! More silly bias.
If they didn't split because of the reason they care mostly for, money, then they won't split because of PUs...
Last edited by mzso on Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

DChemTech
DChemTech
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Location: Delft, NL

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

Post

mzso wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:09 am
DChemTech wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:44 am
But 'road relevant' these days (minimal emissions) is far from entertaining (fast and powerful).
I fail to see how fast and powerful be analogous to entertainment. We'd be watching jets flying around.
It seems more like F1 is too fast to be particularly entertaining to watch. Too little margin to attack to many developments for performance that is a detriment to competition,resulting in lengthy cars and turbulence.
That is a good point. I mainly meant from the perspective that people typically have as 'f1 being the pinnacle of motorsports' translating into the 'fastest and most powerful' cars. That is an interpretation that can be challenged of course. From an entertainment perspective, Mario Kart may be the actual pinnacle.

mzso
mzso
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Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

Post

DChemTech wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:15 am
mzso wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:09 am
DChemTech wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:44 am
But 'road relevant' these days (minimal emissions) is far from entertaining (fast and powerful).
I fail to see how fast and powerful be analogous to entertainment. We'd be watching jets flying around.
It seems more like F1 is too fast to be particularly entertaining to watch. Too little margin to attack to many developments for performance that is a detriment to competition,resulting in lengthy cars and turbulence.
That is a good point. I mainly meant from the perspective that people typically have as 'f1 being the pinnacle of motorsports' translating into the 'fastest and most powerful' cars. That is an interpretation that can be challenged of course. From an entertainment perspective, Mario Kart may be the actual pinnacle.
To be fair F1 seems immune to the lack of entertainment. In the past 25-ish year we mostly had boring years with team dominances where the others couldn't compete. From 2010-2024 two teams won all 14 championships. Yet F1's income and popularity only increased.

"Mario Kart may be the actual pinnacle."
I don't think it's that entertaining to watch.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

Post

DChemTech wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:43 am
my 'problem' with hybrids is that they still use fossil fuel, and that will need to phase out on very short notice...

That people elect stupid governments with stupid plans crawling back on necessary actions does not change that.

And no, electricity does not need to be largely carbon-free for EVs to make sense. In fact, even with a mostly-fossil power production, EVs outperform ICEs.

mzso
mzso
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Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:31 am
DChemTech wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:43 am
my 'problem' with hybrids is that they still use fossil fuel, and that will need to phase out on very short notice...

That people elect stupid governments with stupid plans crawling back on necessary actions does not change that.

And no, electricity does not need to be largely carbon-free for EVs to make sense. In fact, even with a mostly-fossil power production, EVs outperform ICEs.
Okay, so you quoted him. Didn't you want to add something?

Cs98
Cs98
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

Post

TeamKoolGreen wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:05 am
^ Full electric would not be the way to go for "road relevance". Electric vehicles are not out selling ICE anymore. Toyota is the biggest auto maker and they don't even offer an EV.

https://fortune.com/2024/02/08/toyota-h ... cles-hype/

Everything is reverting back to hybrid. Which F1 already is and has been since 2014. So this whole 50% electric idea was totally unnecessary.

Ah but Audi demanded it. Yes. The same Audi that will pull out of F1 after getting dusted by Mercedes. Because Mercedes knows how to build these complicated and expensive contraptions. Im surprised Renault has lasted this long after they also demanded hybrid. And have nothing to show for it but tire tracks on their back.

The ultimate irony in it all is that a fizzy drinks company is building its own engines. Which shows that F1 doesn't need to cave to the demands of big auto.
Because Toyota understand that a hybrid car with a right sized battery and a state of the art ICE is more environmentally friendly than a pure EV with a huge battery. EVs with a 250-300 mile range is an unbelievably stupid concept when you can have a hybrid with 50 mile range that covers 90% of your commutes, and a combustion engine for longer travel or when the weather is cold.

clownfish
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Cs98 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:55 am
Because Toyota understand that a hybrid car with a right sized battery and a state of the art ICE is more environmentally friendly than a pure EV with a huge battery. EVs with a 250-300 mile range is an unbelievably stupid concept when you can have a hybrid with 50 mile range that covers 90% of your commutes, and a combustion engine for longer travel or when the weather is cold.
I've often thought the BMW i3 R(ange)EX(tender) setup made sense. A mid sized battery for day-to-day with a small petrol generator to keep the battery topped up on longer journeys.
BMW stopped selling the REX model though, apparently there was no customer demand for it.

I suppose a more cynical way of looking at this type of hybrid setup is that you're carrying round the weight of an unused ICE engine & fuel tank for 90% of your journeys. Not to mention the embedded energy/CO2 cost of developing and manufacturing the ICE. With that in mind it's hard to make the case for it.