2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
wuzak
wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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The 2026 power unit regulations seem to miss the mark on weight savings.

The ICE unit (engine + turbo) has a minimum weight of 130kg.
The MGUK has a minimum weight of 16kg (previously included in PU weight)
The MGUK transmission as a 4kg minimum weight, which can be added to the MGUK or ICE weights, or shared equally between them.

So ii is:
130kg + 16kg + 4kg = 150kg - which is precisely the same weight as the current power units.

The ES is now listed as 35kg minimum weight, which is 10-15 kg more than the 2022 ES spec, but includes more items.

If they excluded the MGUK and ES they would save 16 + 4 + 35 = 55kg at a minimum.

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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This topic is a tad dead.
So a more recent article: Formula 1 chiefs to make push for lighter grand prix cars

Of course they say nothing about how they want to achieve it when they add and keep increasing minimum weights to the heavies parts... It seems like to me they could easily drop 30 kilos from the engine with removing the restrictions on it.
There's no talk about making the cars shorter, even though length is a greater issue in my opinion... Causes all dumb "I didn't see him" collisions and makes the cars dumb and unresponsive.

wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:54 pm
This topic is a tad dead.
So a more recent article: Formula 1 chiefs to make push for lighter grand prix cars

Of course they say nothing about how they want to achieve it when they add and keep increasing minimum weights to the heavies parts... It seems like to me they could easily drop 30 kilos from the engine with removing the restrictions on it.
There's no talk about making the cars shorter, even though length is a greater issue in my opinion... Causes all dumb "I didn't see him" collisions and makes the cars dumb and unresponsive.
They have talked previously about making the cars smaller.

They will need to, as they won't have the power to overcome the drag as much as they do now.

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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wuzak wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2023 6:02 pm
They have talked previously about making the cars smaller.

They will need to, as they won't have the power to overcome the drag as much as they do now.
Vaguely, more than a year ago. Not a mention since then though.

I have doubts about need to. They seem to ignore issues and implement nonsense as they please.
But what makes you think that a shorter car would be less draggy? It seems likely to be the opposite, seeing as they need to be bulkier.

wuzak
wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2023 10:19 am
wuzak wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2023 6:02 pm
They have talked previously about making the cars smaller.

They will need to, as they won't have the power to overcome the drag as much as they do now.
Vaguely, more than a year ago. Not a mention since then though.

I have doubts about need to. They seem to ignore issues and implement nonsense as they please.
But what makes you think that a shorter car would be less draggy? It seems likely to be the opposite, seeing as they need to be bulkier.
Thinking more smaller overall, including width, and probably narrower tyres, especially at the front.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Making them smaller is relatively easy - just mandate the wheelbase to be X less than it is now. The teams will fit the kit in. Of course, making them shorter will make them lighter as there will be less "stuff". After that, you're looking at dumping the hybrid stuff - the battery is 25kg, the control stuff and the generators weigh what? Another 25kg between them? So that's 50kg from the weight from that. You might be able to drop the weight by 70kg by making them shorter and dumping the hybrid stuff. Is that enough to make the cars "light and nimble"? Not really.

A lot of the weight is the safety stuff - the halo is about 9kg but adds much more because the mounting points have to be reinforced - there must be no deformation of the tub when the halo is test loaded - and that reinforcement is heavy. Likewise the SIS - these are just CF tubes, but where they are mounted has to be reinforced that the SIS deforms and not the tub. Then there is the anti-penetration panel in the tub sides - that's additional weight albeit not in the scale of the halo, etc.. The nose and rear crash structures both add weight and have become heavier as the tests have become more energetic.

So making massive weight savings without removing safety is going to be very difficult once the length and hybrid weight are removed.

It might just be the case that it's no longer possible to have a light F1 car - certainly not in the manner of the 90s / 00s, anyway - simply because no one will countenance reduction in safety.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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I think it's ominous that there isn't even a preliminary set of regulations outside the PU. It already feels like "2027" regulations. In typical F1 style...
wuzak wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2023 5:32 am
Thinking more smaller overall, including width, and probably narrower tyres, especially at the front.
I don't think the narrower cars after 97 did anyone any good. Plus the length to width ratio is already comical. I can see somewhat narrower tires, but I don't think it would have much significance. As it didn't when they increased them twice since the 2014 engine formula.
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:34 am
So making massive weight savings without removing safety is going to be very difficult once the length and hybrid weight are removed.
I think we should keep fever dreams out of this. Hybridization is increasing, so does its weight, that's already decided.
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:34 am
A lot of the weight is the safety stuff - the halo is about 9kg but adds much more because the mounting points have to be reinforced - there must be no deformation of the tub when the halo is test loaded - and that reinforcement is heavy. Likewise the SIS - these are just CF tubes, but where they are mounted has to be reinforced that the SIS deforms and not the tub. Then there is the anti-penetration panel in the tub sides - that's additional weight albeit not in the scale of the halo, etc.. The nose and rear crash structures both add weight and have become heavier as the tests have become more energetic.
There's potential here actually. All of these, the crash structures and the Halo are FIA dumb, crude spec parts. Just abandon them as such and replace them with crash tests.
Plus there's a feedback mechanism at play. The less weight you have you need less crash protection, which means they can be lighter.
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:34 am
Making them smaller is relatively easy - just mandate the wheelbase to be X less than it is now. The teams will fit the kit in. Of course, making them shorter will make them lighter as there will be less "stuff".
This could be a major save I suspect. They can remove around a meter and a half of "stuff. Not sure why the obsession with wheelbase in the regs and elsewhere. Just impose a hard limit of 4.3 meters for the car and they can move around the wheels within that the way they please.

Outside this there would be a major area to gain in the ICE itself as mentioned before, if they bothered with it and didn't just mandate the same weight and materials as it is now... Why? I hardly think the billions of dollars of engine development would be much effected by the use of materials superior to steel. (They explicitly ban metal matrix materials for a start)

But I think there's also a much greater potential for weight savings in the car body. They're using plain carbon fiber composites since the early eighties. If the minimum weight is much decreased they could start developing nanotube or graphene based composites. Maybe even finding much lighter materials to fill the fiber matrix. Now they have no incentive since they can reach the the minimum weight with carbon fiber reinforced plastic.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Aerogels.

I think the CF and aramid sandwich thats necessary could add lots of weigh as well. Developing a single fiber with the best of both would be a huge area for advancement and commercialization.

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Zynerji wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2023 7:55 am
Aerogels.

I think the CF and aramid sandwich thats necessary could add lots of weigh as well. Developing a single fiber with the best of both would be a huge area for advancement and commercialization.
I can't say I ever heard of aerogels used for any structural applications. They're renowned for their thermal insulation capabilities.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2023 7:45 am

There's potential here actually. All of these, the crash structures and the Halo are FIA dumb, crude spec parts. Just abandon them as such and replace them with crash tests.
Plus there's a feedback mechanism at play. The less weight you have you need less crash protection, which means they can be lighter.
How do crash tests deflect an errant wheel or a flying car as halo does?

As for the weight argument, many of the safety features are there to deal with impacts from other cars. Whilst reducing the weight of the cars will help a little, it's the speed that's the bringer of higher energy that kills drivers.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2023 11:11 am
mzso wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2023 7:45 am

There's potential here actually. All of these, the crash structures and the Halo are FIA dumb, crude spec parts. Just abandon them as such and replace them with crash tests.
Plus there's a feedback mechanism at play. The less weight you have you need less crash protection, which means they can be lighter.
How do crash tests deflect an errant wheel or a flying car as halo does?

As for the weight argument, many of the safety features are there to deal with impacts from other cars. Whilst reducing the weight of the cars will help a little, it's the speed that's the bringer of higher energy that kills drivers.
Don't get hung up on wording... I wasn‘t just talking about the halo. Halos can have their applicable tests.

Weight is just as a factor in higher energy.

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AMG.Tzan
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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So absolutely no news on the 2026 chassis...

Newey said the 2026 will be much slower! If they're going to make them lighter and smaller as they always say I'd imagine they'll cut off some of the dimensions! I mean they can instantly make these cars shorter since there's a huge amount of space between the engine and the gearbox or rear axle! But I wouldn't want to go back to 1.8m width cars...they looked awful and strangely shaped!

Other than that the front wing is huge and can easily be made a lot smaller! Also they can now reduce the space between the driver's feet and the front axle since the chassis are way stronger than the past!

Also they have talked a lot about moveable aero surfaces! I still can't understand why they don't let drivers change the front wing angle from the cockpit like they did back in 2010!

Other than that hearing from hearing that the batteries won't last long, they'll have to come up with a chassis which quite "slippery" since drag will be the big differentiating factor for such a battery issue!

Summing up, I'm expecting cars with a lot less downforce and drag consequently and with a lot less power since the battery won't last the whole lap as per the first rumors regarding 2026 power units!
"The only rule is there are no rules" - Aristotle Onassis

PackFansXL
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:54 pm
This topic is a tad dead.
So a more recent article: Formula 1 chiefs to make push for lighter grand prix cars
The article mentions a desire to reduce weight and lots of plans to discuss changes but no timelines. When do they have to settle on weight reduction efforts in order to allow engineers to meet the 2026 schedule?

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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PackFansXL wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 2:14 am
mzso wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:54 pm
This topic is a tad dead.
So a more recent article: Formula 1 chiefs to make push for lighter grand prix cars
The article mentions a desire to reduce weight and lots of plans to discuss changes but no timelines. When do they have to settle on weight reduction efforts in order to allow engineers to meet the 2026 schedule?
Already it doesn't seem like they'll be able to get it out by 2026.
They'll probably drag it out to the last minute like they did for the 2022 formula. So a year before introduction.
Anyway, I expect them to fail miserably in cutting down weight or shortening the car, the latter of which they're not even talking about anymore.

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mclaren111
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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What are the moveable aero parts they're talking about ?