Opinion on 2022 regulations

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henry
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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Sieper wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:46 am
??? Redbull had a rearwing that folded backwards, independently of the car.
Two different things. The rear wing flex is irrelevant to this discussion of suspension characteristics.

You’re complaining that Mercedes lowered the rear of their car to reduce drag but you’re ignoring that Red Bull (and other teams) lowered the rear of their car to a more extreme extent, the high rake cars reduced the rake by much more than Mercedes. If you’re content with Red Bull why are you complaining about Mercedes?
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Sieper
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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Hydraulic suspension was unpolicible, it got banned. And rightfully so. Level playing field again. Just like complex multi part rear wings. It shouldn’t get reintroduced due to a lobby by one team and it certainly looks like that is what is going to happen. “On the medium term”.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

Gillian
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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henry wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:56 am
Sieper wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:16 am
all of the above, who knows, a suspension is to suspend a car, not to get aero benefit. Mercedes was dropping the rear on the straights and was opening its main wing plane. How exactly they achieved that not even the FIA was able to determine. Main plane bending is now certainly not going to be possible anymore as separate wing end plates were eliminated. But if I remember correctly you also simply declined the notion on that. So why do we have this simple one piece mainwing now. Because that can be policed better, as can be simple suspension systems. Any potential of reintroducing more complex systems also means FIA wont be able to police its workings, again. Plus, it seems to me the car was already developed for getting those systems back. Steiner even mentioned that in his interview yesterday (with the wording "but I don't think that was the plan" (so why mention it then, classic tactics).
The suspension has been subordinated to aerodynamics for decades. Suspension member positioning and their shapes, characteristics of heave, pitch and roll, are all first conceived for aero benefit and then the suspension team’s remit is to suspend the car as best they can with those constraints. (Actually it’s probably more of a dialogue but the aero team have by far the largest voice).

And why shouldn’t Mercedes’ rear have squatted, after all the rest of the field had huge rear suspension travel designed to increase downforce at low speed and reduce it at high. (It also had some traction benefits, because the suspension teams’ whispers sometimes got heard).

As @DchemTech has said a few times, the regulations should constrain the goal not the means. If you don’t want squat define squat and say what’s allowable and what isn’t.

Finally the 3 Scrutineers is a red herring. The detailed scrutiny is done by the teams, for themselves and each other, the FIA only look at a few items in general and a larger number randomly. If the teams take a risk on the random elements the penalties are harsh, see Brazil last year.

My opinion is still the same, the FIA changed the balance of tools between aero and suspension making it much more difficult to get a winning compromise. Well done Red Bull for doing best at that compromise but the window to achieve that is so small that the goal of closer racing is potentially a complete fail. I’m assuming Ferrari will be affected more by the TD at Canada than Red Bull. It’s Mercedes in 2014 again, and that’s not what the doctor ordered.
Agreed. We've had an era where catching up was close to impossible due to bad PU rules. Now we have a similar situation but focused on suspension/aero, having an adverse effect on close racing which ultimately was the goal.

So if stricter rules does not work, why not open the technical regulations a bit and allow for more innovation? Make that window, as you say, bigger.

I totally agree there is too much focus on how something should be done. Instead the focus should be on what should be done and police that. Let the teams figure out how they want to do it.

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henry
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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Sieper wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:23 pm
Hydraulic suspension was unpolicible, it got banned. And rightfully so. Level playing field again. Just like complex multi part rear wings. It shouldn’t get reintroduced due to a lobby by one team and it certainly looks like that is what is going to happen. “On the medium term”.
Fair enough, you’ve decided hydraulic suspension was the problem and not what it was doing.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Sieper
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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That was decided by the FIA.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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Zynerji
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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I'm a big fan of the hydraulic suspension.

I feel this current Formula would have been just as fast as the last one if it was retained.

politburo
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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I honestly think there is nothing that can be done to promote close racing in F1, one only hope the teams build a fast car that is it. Teams seldom allow their drivers to overtake each other and managing tyres, ers, and fuel and reliability is much more pronounced the further down you go on the grid - and those cars are already slower. It was promising at first but now we see that even ground effects can't save this series.
"Nosotros diferimos, pero nosotros todos son iguales"

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henry
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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Sieper wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:49 pm
That was decided by the FIA.
But I guess you don’t know what operational problem they were addressing, only that they didn’t like scrutinising for it, whatever it was.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Sieper
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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No, indeed, we will never know for sure. With many of these things. F.e. Even with the 2019 Ferrari engine, we still don’t know.

I really wish we will ever learn the real truth, even if in 20 years. But even then, who to believe, who not to.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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adrianjordan
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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Sieper wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:23 pm
Hydraulic suspension was unpolicible, it got banned. And rightfully so. Level playing field again. Just like complex multi part rear wings. It shouldn’t get reintroduced due to a lobby by one team and it certainly looks like that is what is going to happen. “On the medium term”.
That's your version. The one coming out from multiple sources within the paddock is that most of the drivers want something done, the obvious exceptions being the ones who are sitting pretty at the top of the championship at the moment.

Personally I don't understand why they didn't allow more interesting suspension, it was obvious to many on here that taking away the advanced suspension was going to hurt the ability of these ground effect cars to actually work properly. Now we're seeing that those people were correct.

I see a few people stating that the FIA had problems policing the hydraulic suspension systems, but that argument only seems to have appeared in the last few months. I don't remember ever reading or hearing about it last season. The argument I remember for the simplified suspension was to save money. Well boo hoo. Let the teams spend their budget where they want. The cap is there, let them decide what to spend on chassis vs aero etc.
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Sieper
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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Those kind of arguments (saving money) are to “sell” it imho. They are not going to say we can’t police it. Let me then ask you, why is the new rear wing out of one piece? Why are the separate wingendplates gone. How is that being sold (is it even at all).

I really think that in the end they do want close racing. Multiple teams in the top. That will be huge for the fanbase. That is why they opted to remove any potential hard to police (not even with the input of the other teams) elements. That should have brought the teams closer. That hasn’t happened yet totally, at the front. For me there is no reason to reintroduce these elements. Mercedes will get there.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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Sorry, but in my opinion, this formula is a failure.
History will write it as such.
Red Bull are the closest to an argument against this but is it right that only one team has sort of achieved.

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Big Tea
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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johnny comelately wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:27 pm
Sorry, but in my opinion, this formula is a failure.
History will write it as such.
Red Bull are the closest to an argument against this but is it right that only one team has sort of achieved.
More so when it happened in conjunction with a change of wheel size and tyre construction.
The teams had absolutely on anchor and are working on the modern equivalent of guesswork.
Some parties wanted the cars slowed down (fail)
Some cheaper (Suspect fail)
Some wanted closer racing ( well, different racing )

All in all I prefer the old flavour
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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adrianjordan
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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Sieper wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:56 pm
Those kind of arguments (saving money) are to “sell” it imho. They are not going to say we can’t police it. Let me then ask you, why is the new rear wing out of one piece? Why are the separate wingendplates gone. How is that being sold (is it even at all).

I really think that in the end they do want close racing. Multiple teams in the top. That will be huge for the fanbase. That is why they opted to remove any potential hard to police (not even with the input of the other teams) elements. That should have brought the teams closer. That hasn’t happened yet totally, at the front. For me there is no reason to reintroduce these elements. Mercedes will get there.
All the aero changes were to reduce the turbulent wake. That much has always been clear.
Favourite driver: Lando Norris
Favourite team: McLaren

Turned down the chance to meet Vettel at Silverstone in 2007. He was a test driver at the time and I didn't think it was worth queuing!! 🤦🏻‍♂️

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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Just saw the chat with Christian Horner and the presenters about the rules, he is not a very gracious chap.