2022 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 20 - 22

[cplchanb]

IMHO it's not about playing 2nd to max, it's about not being straight with him but lying to him.

Bird: Let’s give him a shot now. We’ll pay back later.
Checo: Okay
...
Checo: Get me Max out of the way so I overtake quickly.
Bird: Yeah copy Checo. So build the temperature margin for now. Brakes are a bit on the warm side.
Bird: Let’s wait at two seconds for now. We’re in a different race from them.
Checo: Why don’t you let me by? I have very fresh tyres. I can get by quickly.
Bird: Build the margin on the tyre temps, build the margin on the brakes, we’ll get our chance.
Checo: We will compromise our race, mate.
...
Checo: Come on guys, let me by.
Bird: You’ve still got fresh tyres, you’re going to get your shot.
Checo: I did help Max earlier, man, come on.
Bird: Yeah we know Checo.

On a "different race", but forced to stay behind.

There's no need to lie to him or make him believe things that don't exist like "you'll get payback later".
Just tell him straight on the radio: "this is what you signed up for Checo, you are the second driver and you will come second always, and we won't hesitate to ruin your race to get it done even if you were ahead in the WDC".

The thing is, "this is what you signed up for" isn't actually spelled out in the contract, you of course sign up to help your teammate, but treating your drivers like that can easily end up with very negative effects, and you can claim they signed up for it but that's very short term thinking. They will need Checo to drive to win the whole championship.

Fair call, but did you expect any different? I did not.
Mercedes have done it Ferrari have done it, they have probably all done it right down to HAAS and Williams.
Not saying it is right, just that it is what it is. The only way Checo is going to win ahead of Max is if Max is out or there is more than one car between them. I can understand it, We don't have to like it.

Yea but on race 6? Thats way too soon. We saw how it turned out for Austria 2002. I don't think merc ever called a race so soon. In 2018 it was at least half season before they started pulling bottas over for ham

[silver]

IMHO it's not about playing 2nd to max, it's about not being straight with him but lying to him.



On a "different race", but forced to stay behind.

There's no need to lie to him or make him believe things that don't exist like "you'll get payback later".
Just tell him straight on the radio: "this is what you signed up for Checo, you are the second driver and you will come second always, and we won't hesitate to ruin your race to get it done even if you were ahead in the WDC".

The thing is, "this is what you signed up for" isn't actually spelled out in the contract, you of course sign up to help your teammate, but treating your drivers like that can easily end up with very negative effects, and you can claim they signed up for it but that's very short term thinking. They will need Checo to drive to win the whole championship.

Fair call, but did you expect any different? I did not.
Mercedes have done it Ferrari have done it, they have probably all done it right down to HAAS and Williams.
Not saying it is right, just that it is what it is. The only way Checo is going to win ahead of Max is if Max is out or there is more than one car between them. I can understand it, We don't have to like it.

Yea but on race 6? Thats way too soon. We saw how it turned out for Austria 2002. I don't think merc ever called a race so soon. In 2018 it was at least half season before they started pulling bottas over for ham

In 2017, Bottas' race was compromised to help Hamilton in Spain, which was the 5th race of the season. It's not unheard of. It's not bad either from a team standpoint and it doesn't matter when in a season it's done as long as the No.1 driver is fighting with another team. It would be foolish not to do it right as Ferrari showed in 2017 Germany race.

[PlatinumZealot]

In 2017, Bottas' race was compromised to help Hamilton in Spain, which was the 5th race of the season. It's not unheard of. It's not bad either from a team standpoint and it doesn't matter when in a season it's done as long as the No.1 driver is fighting with another team. It would be foolish not to do it right as Ferrari showed in 2017 Germany race.

Bottas was on a different strategy IIRC. He was chewing through tyres and had slow pace. He wasn't even ordered to give up position, Hamilton was coming on fresh tyres, and he was ordered "Not to fight" "Or don't hold Lewis up" and yet Bottas still made it difficult for Lewis to pass. This shows that the Mercedes drivers get equal opportunities. Totally different to RedBull, who focus on one driver at all times. Even when Checo is used to steal "fastest" lap points like the "clean up" squad.

[ringo]

I know Checo has a lot of ambition.
He will probably go back to Mclaren.
He will be allowed to race Norris.
He wont play #2 even if it means he gets to keep his seat.
He can hold out until Ricciardo loses his Mclaren seat.
Danny's career may just be over. But i think he would be a good fit at Alfa Romeo or at Williams.
Latifi needs to leave.. but its hard to tell how tall his money is. He may just be locked in like Stroll.

[silver]

In 2017, Bottas' race was compromised to help Hamilton in Spain, which was the 5th race of the season. It's not unheard of. It's not bad either from a team standpoint and it doesn't matter when in a season it's done as long as the No.1 driver is fighting with another team. It would be foolish not to do it right as Ferrari showed in 2017 Germany race.

Bottas was on a different strategy IIRC. He was chewing through tyres and had slow pace. He wasn't even ordered to give up position, Hamilton was coming on fresh tyres, and he was ordered "Not to fight" "Or don't hold Lewis up" and yet Bottas still made it difficult for Lewis to pass. This shows that the Mercedes drivers get equal opportunities. Totally different to RedBull, who focus on one driver at all times. Even when Checo is used to steal "fastest" lap points like the "clean up" squad.

You are confused between 2021 and 2017. I am a proponent of No.1 driver being favored in all conditions, regardless of which team does it. I just don't like the hypocrisy of trying to say the other team is bad when they do it, while being coy when one's own favorite team does and give all sorts of reasoning to justify it. Every No.2 clearly know they exists because they are a No.2 and should put up with it. They are No.2 for a genuine reason and if they are not, they should prove it like Leclerc did it in 2019/20 to earn that spot. Instead of expecting favors from team, why not consistently outqualify and outrace the team mate to ensure team has no choice but to support? Is that not what Lando did when there was an expectation that Ricciardo would become the defacto team leader after Sainz having beaten Lando in both years at McLaren?

[drunkf1fan]

Bottas's race wasn't compromised in 2017, he started on the same strategy, he was moved to a one stop not to help Hamilton or block Vettel but because he was 12 seconds off Hamilton by the time Ham pit. Vettel pit early, Hamilton pit a fair amount later, Hamilton came out and Vettel after pitting had already caught Bottas basically as Hamilton pit and he came out comfortably behind both anyway.

No one thinks a car is going to heavily hold up a car on far far faster tires at that point of the race and shockingly he failed to hold up Vettel. They switched him to attempt a one stop because the single shot Bottas had of making up any time on Vettel was to save a pitstop. Ricciardo was 30 seconds behind, Bottas could pit any time and he'd be safe to the end in 3rd place. They were trying to get him closer to Vettel because it's the only car he could potentially fight and on the same strategy he has zero shot at catching Vettel.

If he was 2 seconds behind Ham and 4 off Vettel and they randomly held him out for an extra 10 laps that's one thing, something Ferrari did to Kimi a lot, but he was 10 seconds off Vettel when vettel pit, he was 12 seconds off Ham when he pit later on, he had no pace.

[Spoutnik]

Spain 2017 is very different because anyway Bottas would've finished 3rd. He was in a no man's land. Kimi and Max DNF on the 1st lap and Ricciardo was 30sec behind in 4th.
(I just rewatched this race last week)

[sosic2121]

So Sainz car was fine? Hard to beleive his pace was that slow but gives more credence to Mercedes saying they could hang with Ferrari.

Hang with ferrari - yes, with ferraris - certainly not!
Leclerc was clearly quickest this time.
Sainz really needs to step up or step down. I really thought he's a very good driver...

[epo]

Regarding the redbull choice.
Why it is wrong is that basically Checo will not be able to go wheel to wheep with Max ever!
He cannot fight for a win even if he wanted to. Even if in a race Max was faster and closing down on him.. all he can do is step aside.
If i were Checo i would leave.
Its best to be a #2 like Webber who never got the best options but he could fight back.

What is your issue with it? He is hired for this and also proven last year he is the no2 driver, simple as that and has never proven to be faster.
You are not Checo and don't speak for him, I know you would love to see Max beaten by Checo or anyone but keep it yourself, don't post your dreams if none of it is reality. I can remember you posting something about you being happy about Max seeing crashing (Silverstone), says enough.

[pakoyz250f]

I know Checo has a lot of ambition.
He will probably go back to Mclaren.
He will be allowed to race Norris.
He wont play #2 even if it means he gets to keep his seat.
He can hold out until Ricciardo loses his Mclaren seat.
Danny's career may just be over. But i think he would be a good fit at Alfa Romeo or at Williams.
Latifi needs to leave.. but its hard to tell how tall his money is. He may just be locked in like Stroll.

No he wont, he will get a 2 years contract and then I think he will retire after a great career. About the Mclaren seat Colton Herta may take it (for me Pato Oward is better) but what do I know...

[Gillian]

In 2017, Bottas' race was compromised to help Hamilton in Spain, which was the 5th race of the season. It's not unheard of. It's not bad either from a team standpoint and it doesn't matter when in a season it's done as long as the No.1 driver is fighting with another team. It would be foolish not to do it right as Ferrari showed in 2017 Germany race.

Bottas was on a different strategy IIRC. He was chewing through tyres and had slow pace. He wasn't even ordered to give up position, Hamilton was coming on fresh tyres, and he was ordered "Not to fight" "Or don't hold Lewis up" and yet Bottas still made it difficult for Lewis to pass. This shows that the Mercedes drivers get equal opportunities. Totally different to RedBull, who focus on one driver at all times. Even when Checo is used to steal "fastest" lap points like the "clean up" squad.

You are confused between 2021 and 2017. I am a proponent of No.1 driver being favored in all conditions, regardless of which team does it. I just don't like the hypocrisy of trying to say the other team is bad when they do it, while being coy when one's own favorite team does and give all sorts of reasoning to justify it. Every No.2 clearly know they exists because they are a No.2 and should put up with it. They are No.2 for a genuine reason and if they are not, they should prove it like Leclerc did it in 2019/20 to earn that spot. Instead of expecting favors from team, why not consistently outqualify and outrace the team mate to ensure team has no choice but to support? Is that not what Lando did when there was an expectation that Ricciardo would become the defacto team leader after Sainz having beaten Lando in both years at McLaren?

You summed it up perfectly imo.

If you're the "number 2 driver" it's because the other guy is faster/better 9 out of 10 races. Don't like? Get better. Leclerc is a great example of that!

[Edax]

Hi to everyone! I´m new here I have been reading the forum since this season and it´s great... I´m mexican and I have been following F1 since 1998 when I was 11 years old. The schumi-mika era was great and I was hooked ever since...

So I may be biased of course but after reading the transcript for the red bull barcelona radios I think Checo had a legitimate reason to be angry, of course we will never know if he could win it but at least IMO he could have fight for it if he was allowed. Anyway this is shaping to be a great season!! Cheers !

https://www.racefans.net/2022/05/23/why ... -in-spain/

Hi and welcome.

Of course as a racefan I’d like to see a good fight, but I guess the team didn’t want to risk it and chose to support VES in the WDC over PER instead of having them fight over it.

That is tough but think we will see these calls even more often with the current regulations. With the cost cap and limited components pool teams will be more risk averse than ever.

Anyway I can understand why PER was angry, but I do understand the decision not to risk it, not that late in the race.

For not having PER have a go at RUS first I think that is more debatable. Either they did not want PER in front of VES or they hesitated because they thought that VES only needed one good DRS deployment and that they could fix it within a lap (and then the next etc).

If it was the first it is wrong, if it was the second then it still was a wrong call but for me understandable in that context.

[sosic2121]

In 2017, Bottas' race was compromised to help Hamilton in Spain

It would be foolish not to do it right as Ferrari showed in 2017 Germany race.

Is that the race when Bottas' engine exploded after fighting Vettel?

I think it was Germany 2018?

[pakoyz250f]

Hi to everyone! I´m new here I have been reading the forum since this season and it´s great... I´m mexican and I have been following F1 since 1998 when I was 11 years old. The schumi-mika era was great and I was hooked ever since...

So I may be biased of course but after reading the transcript for the red bull barcelona radios I think Checo had a legitimate reason to be angry, of course we will never know if he could win it but at least IMO he could have fight for it if he was allowed. Anyway this is shaping to be a great season!! Cheers !

https://www.racefans.net/2022/05/23/why ... -in-spain/

Hi and welcome.

Of course as a racefan I’d like to see a good fight, but I guess the team didn’t want to risk it and chose to support VES in the WDC over PER instead of having them fight over it.

That is tough but think we will see these calls even more often with the current regulations. With the cost cap and limited components pool teams will be more risk averse than ever.

Anyway I can understand why PER was angry, but I do understand the decision not to risk it, not that late in the race.

For not having PER have a go at RUS first I think that is more debatable. Either they did not want PER in front of VES or they hesitated because they thought that VES only needed one good DRS deployment and that they could fix it within a lap (and then the next etc).

If it was the first it is wrong, if it was the second then it still was a wrong call but for me understandable in that context.

Hi! Thanks and yeah I agree with all you said... Every race has had some kind of controversy or something I kind of love it after so many years of somewhat boring seasons, last year and this one has been great so far.

Cheers

[ringo]

Just to put things into perspective..
What would the points standing be if Checo rightfully won that race? 11 points!! after 6 rounds.

I called it at the beginning of the season, but Checo has a good chance of being champion, if even by Max having bad luck and reliability issues.

Checo is very much in this championship fight. And it is sad that he is in a very strong position to challenge for it, yet he is not allowed to. There are no statistics this year so far that deems Checo unfit to be champion; if even by luck or consistency.