TD039

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Quantum
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Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:59 pm

Re: TD039

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Sevach wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:12 pm

But he has, his team has been the driving force behind both the TDs.
First he was trying to get a minimum safe ride height rule implemented, this one backfired, the TD didn't come out as he wanted to.
Mercedes is also behind asking a clarification regarding the plank, and Mr Wolff went to the press and said he was "shocked" that some of his rivals were "abusing this blatant loophole", "contrary to the spirit of the rules"... you can search this btw.
Oficially he didn't mention which teams were those, behind closed doors Mercedes was telling the press Red Bull and Ferrari and even putting a number on it, 6mm, how they could accurately measure their guess of what other cars were doing beats me...
Not Wolff, but... you can add George Russell piling on and saying "for sure" Ferrari and Red Bull were abusing it, and it wouldn't help them.

The firing back is more than a little deserved.
Seems contentious to me that you would argue it was because of Mercedes that the TD was implemented.
First off, the problem wasn't unique to Mercedes.
Secondly, other drivers complained.
Third, some team drivers changed their tune between Azerbaijan and Canadian GPs, knowing that any negative feedback on porpoising would translate to more immediate action.

From Perez losing vision, to Gasly visiting the medical centre to Kmag having a nerve issue in his back and Ricciardo complaining of exacerbated soreness of the spine, and Sainz calling for action to be taken.
All outside of Mercedes orbit.
Shall we go about "blaming" these and then calling just deserts when the coin flip TD doesn't go a specific team/drivers way?

Some people are more upset with Mercedes for beating the drum loudest, than other teams telling their drivers to shut up and carry on.

It's like the bias is magnetically blinding some to the reality that this wasn't a uniquely Mercedes problem.

As for the Russell quote, thats selective bias.
He said
It certainly wont help them, but there’s no guarantees it would bring them closer to us. We know if it was on our car it would make us slower. There’s no guarantees, every car is different.
Headline hyperbole is great for titillation, but he did say there were no guarantees and caveated that every car is different. Stands to reason, right?
"Interplay of triads"

aran.vtec
aran.vtec
1
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:10 am

Re: TD039

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Quantum wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:05 pm
Sevach wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:12 pm

But he has, his team has been the driving force behind both the TDs.
First he was trying to get a minimum safe ride height rule implemented, this one backfired, the TD didn't come out as he wanted to.
Mercedes is also behind asking a clarification regarding the plank, and Mr Wolff went to the press and said he was "shocked" that some of his rivals were "abusing this blatant loophole", "contrary to the spirit of the rules"... you can search this btw.
Oficially he didn't mention which teams were those, behind closed doors Mercedes was telling the press Red Bull and Ferrari and even putting a number on it, 6mm, how they could accurately measure their guess of what other cars were doing beats me...
Not Wolff, but... you can add George Russell piling on and saying "for sure" Ferrari and Red Bull were abusing it, and it wouldn't help them.

The firing back is more than a little deserved.
Seems contentious to me that you would argue it was because of Mercedes that the TD was implemented.
First off, the problem wasn't unique to Mercedes.
Secondly, other drivers complained.
Third, some team drivers changed their tune between Azerbaijan and Canadian GPs, knowing that any negative feedback on porpoising would translate to more immediate action.

From Perez losing vision, to Gasly visiting the medical centre to Kmag having a nerve issue in his back and Ricciardo complaining of exacerbated soreness of the spine, and Sainz calling for action to be taken.
All outside of Mercedes orbit.
Shall we go about "blaming" these and then calling just deserts when the coin flip TD doesn't go a specific team/drivers way?

Some people are more upset with Mercedes for beating the drum loudest, than other teams telling their drivers to shut up and carry on.

It's like the bias is magnetically blinding some to the reality that this wasn't a uniquely Mercedes problem.

As for the Russell quote, thats selective bias.
He said
It certainly wont help them, but there’s no guarantees it would bring them closer to us. We know if it was on our car it would make us slower. There’s no guarantees, every car is different.
Headline hyperbole is great for titillation, but he did say there were no guarantees and caveated that every car is different. Stands to reason, right?
Its what he said before that, short of saying that they cheating he used the political correct way to get the message across.



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Quantum
15
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:59 pm

Re: TD039

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aran.vtec wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:43 pm
Its what he said before that, short of saying that they cheating he used the political correct way to get the message across
"They pushed the regulations" Does not equate to cheating.
"Interplay of triads"

N21
N21
1
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:17 pm

Re: TD039

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Quantum wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:06 pm
aran.vtec wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:43 pm
Its what he said before that, short of saying that they cheating he used the political correct way to get the message across
"They pushed the regulations" Does not equate to cheating.
George Russel is the type of guy who would say “they pushed the regulations” when he suspects a team is cheating.

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Quantum
15
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:59 pm

Re: TD039

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N21 wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 3:58 pm

George Russel is the type of guy who would say “they pushed the regulations” when he suspects a team is cheating.
You know George Russell that well that you'd replace the very words he said, to what you think he said.
And, you'll get an upvote for it. :lol:
"Interplay of triads"

N21
N21
1
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:17 pm

Re: TD039

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Quantum wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:39 am
N21 wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 3:58 pm

George Russel is the type of guy who would say “they pushed the regulations” when he suspects a team is cheating.
You know George Russell that well that you'd replace the very words he said, to what you think he said.
And, you'll get an upvote for it. :lol:
Haha no I was joking.

There was this thing on social media a couple of weeks back where people would say things with “George Russel is the type of guy who… (followed by typical British things)”

You can probably google it if you want

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Quantum
15
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:59 pm

Re: TD039

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N21 wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:09 am
Haha no I was joking.

There was this thing on social media a couple of weeks back where people would say things with “George Russel is the type of guy who… (followed by typical British things)”

You can probably google it if you want
Ahhh of course. Lazy media diatribe and clickbait is mostly responsible for the toxicity in F1 these days.
I mean it never was all peaches and cream, but asking leading questions of team bosses and drivers and publishing excerpts that suit divisive narratives are becoming all too common.
This is when some fans take interpretation to the next level, outlined "pushing boundaries = cheating" cos George means XYZ when he said ABC.. :-k
"Interplay of triads"

N21
N21
1
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:17 pm

Re: TD039

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Quantum wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 12:11 pm
N21 wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:09 am
Haha no I was joking.

There was this thing on social media a couple of weeks back where people would say things with “George Russel is the type of guy who… (followed by typical British things)”

You can probably google it if you want
Ahhh of course. Lazy media diatribe and clickbait is mostly responsible for the toxicity in F1 these days.
I mean it never was all peaches and cream, but asking leading questions of team bosses and drivers and publishing excerpts that suit divisive narratives are becoming all too common.
This is when some fans take interpretation to the next level, outlined "pushing boundaries = cheating" cos George means XYZ when he said ABC.. :-k
I’m not sure if you understand the joke. I did not try to say that GR said that teams were cheating, simply referring to a meme on twitter

Andi76
Andi76
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Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:19 pm

Re: TD039

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mendis wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:58 pm
marcel171281 wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:51 pm
Sevach wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 9:28 pm

Red Bull vast experience with running the floor a long way from the ground might be beneficial with the formula being rebalanced slightly.
But that's speculation.
You can just as easily say, that the height next year is closest to the height Mercedes has been driving for years.
Mercedes has been running their floor as low as possible and most of the time scrapping on the ground. Even this year, in search of performance, they have been running it lower than anyone else. They even put floor stays to hold it back from scraping too low. Next year, it's just that outer edge of floor that would be raised by 15mm. Again, Red Bull have been the masters of sealing the floor edges when they were running high rake and even this year they run it higher than Mercedes. So there is a good argument to say, it might hurt Mercedes next year if the floor edges raise whereas Red Bull manages to seal the floor better.
Mercedes definetely runs the floor edges closer to the ground than any other team and probably will be hurt more in that regard. But i think there is also another area of experience thats also important. The Venturi Tunnels themselves and different philosophies. Red Bulls tunnel-"roof" is high and arched and Mercedes has copied it. Ferrari on the other hand has a completely different approach with a low tunnel-"roof". I do not have experience with Venturi-Tunnels and maybe someone with more knowledge can draw some conclusion in relation to that, but i am pretty sure that the new regularies hurt one philosophy more than the other. Personally i assume Ferrari will be the one who is hurt more than Red Bull, as their philosophy seems to be more dependant on being as close to the ground as possible.

Xwang
Xwang
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Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:12 am

Re: TD039

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After two races in completely different tracks IMHO the new TD has hurt Ferrari the most. After a whole championship in which on performance they have been neck to neck with RB now they are definitely slower than RB and also than Mercedes.
Probably in the same way a three years ago they have based all their project on exploiting a loophole.
As soon as the loophole has been closed, their project has gone immediately in the trash bin.
No problem! They will now pass next years developing on a completely different floor aero concept but they will never be able to regain the development time lost pursuing an easily closeable loophole and they will say that they will concentrate to come back at next rule shuffle in 26.
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

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carisi2k
22
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: TD039

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Quantum wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:05 pm
Sevach wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:12 pm

But he has, his team has been the driving force behind both the TDs.
First he was trying to get a minimum safe ride height rule implemented, this one backfired, the TD didn't come out as he wanted to.
Mercedes is also behind asking a clarification regarding the plank, and Mr Wolff went to the press and said he was "shocked" that some of his rivals were "abusing this blatant loophole", "contrary to the spirit of the rules"... you can search this btw.
Oficially he didn't mention which teams were those, behind closed doors Mercedes was telling the press Red Bull and Ferrari and even putting a number on it, 6mm, how they could accurately measure their guess of what other cars were doing beats me...
Not Wolff, but... you can add George Russell piling on and saying "for sure" Ferrari and Red Bull were abusing it, and it wouldn't help them.

The firing back is more than a little deserved.
Seems contentious to me that you would argue it was because of Mercedes that the TD was implemented.
First off, the problem wasn't unique to Mercedes.
Secondly, other drivers complained.
Third, some team drivers changed their tune between Azerbaijan and Canadian GPs, knowing that any negative feedback on porpoising would translate to more immediate action.

From Perez losing vision, to Gasly visiting the medical centre to Kmag having a nerve issue in his back and Ricciardo complaining of exacerbated soreness of the spine, and Sainz calling for action to be taken.
All outside of Mercedes orbit.
Shall we go about "blaming" these and then calling just deserts when the coin flip TD doesn't go a specific team/drivers way?

Some people are more upset with Mercedes for beating the drum loudest, than other teams telling their drivers to shut up and carry on.

It's like the bias is magnetically blinding some to the reality that this wasn't a uniquely Mercedes problem.
At Baku the problem wasn't porpoising on cars like the Red Bull and Mclaren. It was the bumps on the track that was causing Perez loss of vision and the other drivers issues which you don't seem to understand. The Mercedes was the worst because they were dealing with 3 issues around Baku with the bumpy track, porpoising and the bouncing in corners because of there aero instability issues.

TD039 however isn't about the porpoising but the floor plank and this 6mm deformation. My suspicions all along was that Red Bull was clear of this because of the floor concept and it was Ferrari whom were guilty which is why we got this TD instead of disqualification for a guilty party. I suspected that Mercedes was also looking in to this trick because the W13 runs so low to the ground and this trick would benefit any car that runs so low to the ground. Spa had me thinking this but Zanvoordt showed that indeed it was Ferrari who really got hit by TD039.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: TD039

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carisi2k wrote:
Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:09 am
Quantum wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:05 pm
Sevach wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:12 pm

But he has, his team has been the driving force behind both the TDs.
First he was trying to get a minimum safe ride height rule implemented, this one backfired, the TD didn't come out as he wanted to.
Mercedes is also behind asking a clarification regarding the plank, and Mr Wolff went to the press and said he was "shocked" that some of his rivals were "abusing this blatant loophole", "contrary to the spirit of the rules"... you can search this btw.
Oficially he didn't mention which teams were those, behind closed doors Mercedes was telling the press Red Bull and Ferrari and even putting a number on it, 6mm, how they could accurately measure their guess of what other cars were doing beats me...
Not Wolff, but... you can add George Russell piling on and saying "for sure" Ferrari and Red Bull were abusing it, and it wouldn't help them.

The firing back is more than a little deserved.
Seems contentious to me that you would argue it was because of Mercedes that the TD was implemented.
First off, the problem wasn't unique to Mercedes.
Secondly, other drivers complained.
Third, some team drivers changed their tune between Azerbaijan and Canadian GPs, knowing that any negative feedback on porpoising would translate to more immediate action.

From Perez losing vision, to Gasly visiting the medical centre to Kmag having a nerve issue in his back and Ricciardo complaining of exacerbated soreness of the spine, and Sainz calling for action to be taken.
All outside of Mercedes orbit.
Shall we go about "blaming" these and then calling just deserts when the coin flip TD doesn't go a specific team/drivers way?

Some people are more upset with Mercedes for beating the drum loudest, than other teams telling their drivers to shut up and carry on.

It's like the bias is magnetically blinding some to the reality that this wasn't a uniquely Mercedes problem.


TD039 however isn't about the porpoising

TD039 introduced the AOM metric.

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vorticism
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Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:20 pm

Re: TD039

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Is there a copy of the directive online?

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carisi2k
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Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: TD039

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AR3-GP wrote:
Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:27 pm

TD039 introduced the AOM metric.
No TD039 was about the plank flexing 6mm and the measurements holes and not the measurement of aerodynamic oscillation which is a different TD.

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jumpingfish
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Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:19 pm
Location: Ru

Re: TD039

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carisi2k wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 7:20 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:27 pm

TD039 introduced the AOM metric.
No TD039 was about the plank flexing 6mm and the measurements holes and not the measurement of aerodynamic oscillation which is a different TD.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... uijHP.html