What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

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Dee wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:17 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:30 pm
Dee wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:00 pm
Everyone is missing what Hamilton said directly after the crash

"I was ahead, it was my line"

Then changes is to

"I was alongside"

Mentally, Lewis thought he was ahead and had won the corner. He went in with speed and in his mind, it was Max that had to back out.

He was never ahead and never had the racing line. He misjudged it and thus the crash happened.
He was ahead on the approach and he was alongside on the entry. He ended up dropping back because he saw Max wasn't going to do anything other than turn in.
Absolute and utter lie, on the same level as flat earth territory

Video evidence of Hamilton never being ahead at any point and you want to say this...

He was alongside for a split second because he braked too late to take the corner cleanly

Even Hamilton himself had to backtrack on his ahead comment because he knew he was wrong
If you prefer that, go ahead.

There was one person who had the power to avoid contact in that corner, and he turned in anyway.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Dee
Dee
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Re: What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:22 pm
Dee wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:17 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:30 pm

He was ahead on the approach and he was alongside on the entry. He ended up dropping back because he saw Max wasn't going to do anything other than turn in.
Absolute and utter lie, on the same level as flat earth territory

Video evidence of Hamilton never being ahead at any point and you want to say this...

He was alongside for a split second because he braked too late to take the corner cleanly

Even Hamilton himself had to backtrack on his ahead comment because he knew he was wrong
If you prefer that, go ahead.

There was one person who had the power to avoid contact in that corner, and he turned in anyway.
From the official FIA report

"Cars 33 [Verstappen] and 44 [Hamilton] entered turn 9 with Car 33 in the lead and Car 44 slightly behind and on the inside.

"When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33.

Everyone see's what you are doing right now and it really is not pretty

Funny how Lewis made it clear this year to Charles how he made every effort to avoid contact with him in that corner and since 2007, he has avoided contact with every other driver but somehow, Max in 2021, on the same identical line as Charles was too hard to avoid...

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

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Dee wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:31 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:22 pm
Dee wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:17 pm


Absolute and utter lie, on the same level as flat earth territory

Video evidence of Hamilton never being ahead at any point and you want to say this...

He was alongside for a split second because he braked too late to take the corner cleanly

Even Hamilton himself had to backtrack on his ahead comment because he knew he was wrong
If you prefer that, go ahead.

There was one person who had the power to avoid contact in that corner, and he turned in anyway.
From the official FIA report

"Cars 33 [Verstappen] and 44 [Hamilton] entered turn 9 with Car 33 in the lead and Car 44 slightly behind and on the inside.

"When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33.

Everyone see's what you are doing right now and it really is not pretty

Funny how Lewis made it clear this year to Charles how he made every effort to avoid contact with him in that corner and since 2007, he has avoided contact with every other driver but somehow, Max in 2021, on the same identical line as Charles was too hard to avoid...
Strangely, the official version doesn't point out that Max didn't have to turn in then. He had space outside. The same as the official version in Austria blamed George even though he was on the inside kerb and Perez had room to spare outside.

The official version is worthless, sadly, because they base their judgement on outcome and not cause.

If you hang your argument on the "official version" then you will be factually wrong as often as you are factually correct.

As for 2022 being an identical line, that goes back to what I said earlier - you aren't taking account of the run up to the corner. In 2021, Max squeezed Lewis towards the inside wall on the approach - classic Michael, in fact - in the belief that Lewis would do what everyone does when bullied which is back down. But Lewis didn't back down. He took his line in to the corner. Max then tried again to bully him by turning in - as he had done many times before and each time Lewis and others had made it safe. This time, Lewis said "nope, that's your problem Max" and, surprise, Max crashed.

If drivers had given Max the same treatment years before, instead of giving way to the bullying moves, Silverstone wouldn't have happened.

Max turned in an expected Lewis to somehow get out of the way as he always had before. But this time that wasn't physically possible.

Max controlled the destiny of that corner and he decided to turn in. He decided badly.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Re: What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

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It's interesting to compare Max and Lewis in Austria. It was a reversal of previous years - Max with the car advantage and the title to lose. And surprisingly, Max gave Lewis room when trying to overtake him. No "I pass or we crash" of previous years. Why? Because this year Max has everything to lose and Lewis has nothing to lose. That's a reversal of previous years and it showed. Max gave Lewis room, chose his moment to pass, didn't send one in from long range, didn't squeeze. Drove like Charles, in fact.

Funny that.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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chrisc90
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Re: What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

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*Comes up to a corner at 180mph*

I know....lets not turn into the corner at all. Makes perfect sense.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

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organic
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Re: What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

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It is wild how personal biases on all sides warp people's perceptions of events that are so well documented !

All should have a breather in this thread

Dee
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Re: What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:49 pm
Dee wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:31 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:22 pm

If you prefer that, go ahead.

There was one person who had the power to avoid contact in that corner, and he turned in anyway.
From the official FIA report

"Cars 33 [Verstappen] and 44 [Hamilton] entered turn 9 with Car 33 in the lead and Car 44 slightly behind and on the inside.

"When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33.

Everyone see's what you are doing right now and it really is not pretty

Funny how Lewis made it clear this year to Charles how he made every effort to avoid contact with him in that corner and since 2007, he has avoided contact with every other driver but somehow, Max in 2021, on the same identical line as Charles was too hard to avoid...
Strangely, the official version doesn't point out that Max didn't have to turn in then. He had space outside. The same as the official version in Austria blamed George even though he was on the inside kerb and Perez had room to spare outside.

The official version is worthless, sadly, because they base their judgement on outcome and not cause.

If you hang your argument on the "official version" then you will be factually wrong as often as you are factually correct.

As for 2022 being an identical line, that goes back to what I said earlier - you aren't taking account of the run up to the corner. In 2021, Max squeezed Lewis towards the inside wall on the approach - classic Michael, in fact - in the belief that Lewis would do what everyone does when bullied which is back down. But Lewis didn't back down. He took his line in to the corner. Max then tried again to bully him by turning in - as he had done many times before and each time Lewis and others had made it safe. This time, Lewis said "nope, that's your problem Max" and, surprise, Max crashed.

If drivers had given Max the same treatment years before, instead of giving way to the bullying moves, Silverstone wouldn't have happened.

Max turned in an expected Lewis to somehow get out of the way as he always had before. But this time that wasn't physically possible.

Max controlled the destiny of that corner and he decided to turn in. He decided badly.
Sainz squeezed Max into the wall in SIlverstone last month and surprise, surprise, Max was able to avoid contact and take the corner cleanly, so it can and has been done when someone is put into a sub-optimal line. It is physically possible.

You seem to think, by what you have written, that Lewis not avoiding contact he knew would happen is Max's fault...

Max gave Lewis plenty of space to take that corner cleanly, but not in the lead

It was defensive driving 101

Dee
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Re: What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:54 pm
It's interesting to compare Max and Lewis in Austria. It was a reversal of previous years - Max with the car advantage and the title to lose. And surprisingly, Max gave Lewis room when trying to overtake him. No "I pass or we crash" of previous years. Why? Because this year Max has everything to lose and Lewis has nothing to lose. That's a reversal of previous years and it showed. Max gave Lewis room, chose his moment to pass, didn't send one in from long range, didn't squeeze. Drove like Charles, in fact.

Funny that.
Charles gave Lewis less room than Max and Lewis called him a sensible driver...

Charles is aggressive and deserved two penalties in Silverstone. You may have drank the Lewis coolaid but Charles is the same as Max, they are both sides of the same coin.

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RZS10
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Re: What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

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organic wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:58 pm
It is wild how personal biases on all sides warp people's perceptions of events that are so well documented !

All should have a breather in this thread
Fascinating, isn't it? This topic has been done to death in the race and analysis thread last year with evidence to prove at least a few key points or even facts which all should be able to agree on and even with a year passing in two days some haven't moved towards a more balanced view of what happened.

Just_a_fan
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Re: What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

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Dee wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:04 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:54 pm
It's interesting to compare Max and Lewis in Austria. It was a reversal of previous years - Max with the car advantage and the title to lose. And surprisingly, Max gave Lewis room when trying to overtake him. No "I pass or we crash" of previous years. Why? Because this year Max has everything to lose and Lewis has nothing to lose. That's a reversal of previous years and it showed. Max gave Lewis room, chose his moment to pass, didn't send one in from long range, didn't squeeze. Drove like Charles, in fact.

Funny that.
Charles gave Lewis less room than Max and Lewis called him a sensible driver...

Charles is aggressive and deserved two penalties in Silverstone. You may have drank the Lewis coolaid but Charles is the same as Max, they are both sides of the same coin.
The approach to the corner was different between Max/Lewis and Charles/Lewis. People who look at a still image and say "this is what happened" need to learn that stuff happens that leads up to that particular moment in time. Ignore the lead up and the moment in time is irrelevant.

I'm not sure I've ever had coolaid. Is that like Elderflower cordial? SWMBO makes a great Elderflower cordial.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Re: What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

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Dee wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:58 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:49 pm
Dee wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:31 pm


From the official FIA report

"Cars 33 [Verstappen] and 44 [Hamilton] entered turn 9 with Car 33 in the lead and Car 44 slightly behind and on the inside.

"When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33.

Everyone see's what you are doing right now and it really is not pretty

Funny how Lewis made it clear this year to Charles how he made every effort to avoid contact with him in that corner and since 2007, he has avoided contact with every other driver but somehow, Max in 2021, on the same identical line as Charles was too hard to avoid...
Strangely, the official version doesn't point out that Max didn't have to turn in then. He had space outside. The same as the official version in Austria blamed George even though he was on the inside kerb and Perez had room to spare outside.

The official version is worthless, sadly, because they base their judgement on outcome and not cause.

If you hang your argument on the "official version" then you will be factually wrong as often as you are factually correct.

As for 2022 being an identical line, that goes back to what I said earlier - you aren't taking account of the run up to the corner. In 2021, Max squeezed Lewis towards the inside wall on the approach - classic Michael, in fact - in the belief that Lewis would do what everyone does when bullied which is back down. But Lewis didn't back down. He took his line in to the corner. Max then tried again to bully him by turning in - as he had done many times before and each time Lewis and others had made it safe. This time, Lewis said "nope, that's your problem Max" and, surprise, Max crashed.

If drivers had given Max the same treatment years before, instead of giving way to the bullying moves, Silverstone wouldn't have happened.

Max turned in an expected Lewis to somehow get out of the way as he always had before. But this time that wasn't physically possible.

Max controlled the destiny of that corner and he decided to turn in. He decided badly.
Sainz squeezed Max into the wall in SIlverstone last month and surprise, surprise, Max was able to avoid contact and take the corner cleanly, so it can and has been done when someone is put into a sub-optimal line. It is physically possible.

It was defensive driving 101
Different corner, different line required.

It's driving 101.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Dee
Dee
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Re: What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:21 pm
Dee wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:58 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:49 pm


Strangely, the official version doesn't point out that Max didn't have to turn in then. He had space outside. The same as the official version in Austria blamed George even though he was on the inside kerb and Perez had room to spare outside.

The official version is worthless, sadly, because they base their judgement on outcome and not cause.

If you hang your argument on the "official version" then you will be factually wrong as often as you are factually correct.

As for 2022 being an identical line, that goes back to what I said earlier - you aren't taking account of the run up to the corner. In 2021, Max squeezed Lewis towards the inside wall on the approach - classic Michael, in fact - in the belief that Lewis would do what everyone does when bullied which is back down. But Lewis didn't back down. He took his line in to the corner. Max then tried again to bully him by turning in - as he had done many times before and each time Lewis and others had made it safe. This time, Lewis said "nope, that's your problem Max" and, surprise, Max crashed.

If drivers had given Max the same treatment years before, instead of giving way to the bullying moves, Silverstone wouldn't have happened.

Max turned in an expected Lewis to somehow get out of the way as he always had before. But this time that wasn't physically possible.

Max controlled the destiny of that corner and he decided to turn in. He decided badly.
Sainz squeezed Max into the wall in SIlverstone last month and surprise, surprise, Max was able to avoid contact and take the corner cleanly, so it can and has been done when someone is put into a sub-optimal line. It is physically possible.

It was defensive driving 101
Different corner, different line required.

It's driving 101.
Driving 101 is if a different line was required by Lewis to not crash into Max on that corner, then why didn't he take it?

He had time and space to do that.

Being on a sub-optimal line means that you have to adapt to what is happening around you

Staying on that sub-optimal line while never being ahead and keeping the same speed you would have when you should be on the ideal one is going to cause a crash, and that is what happened

wesley123
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Re: What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

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Dee wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:31 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:21 pm
Dee wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:58 pm


Sainz squeezed Max into the wall in SIlverstone last month and surprise, surprise, Max was able to avoid contact and take the corner cleanly, so it can and has been done when someone is put into a sub-optimal line. It is physically possible.

It was defensive driving 101
Different corner, different line required.

It's driving 101.
Driving 101 is if a different line was required by Lewis to not crash into Max on that corner, then why didn't he take it?
Relatively certain that if he would have braked, he would still have had understeer.

Lewis had little to lose with that move, and Max had a lot more to lose. And of course Max being Max, he expects everyone to just disappear and went for the turn in instead of taking a wider line like every other driver on the grid would have done.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

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Shrieker
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Re: What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

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An analysis was done :arrow: here last year.

So max fully expected Lewis to hit the apex; preach. That's one hell of an assumption to make, when he was not entering the corner from the usual racing line (way on the left side), but almost from the right half, even further away from the median line. Hamilton did extremely well to not understeer more than a couple inches, even more so when outwash from the other car is taken into account. This is extremely clear in the video.

Not to mention, Hamilton was under no obligation to hit the apex, if it meant slowing down a bit and yielding the position. And it did. Still, the majority of the track was at MV's disposal. He let off the throttle later and turned it, as if Hamilton wasn't there.

The crash was judged to be a racing incident by many. Two drivers at the peak of their game played a game of chicken at close to 300, with little or no reaction opportunity involved, and one lost out badly. This begs the question as to why Hamilton was penalized then. Video evidence shows he didn't turn his wheel towards his opponent, he understeered maybe a couple inches (and even that's arguable), so he absolutely did nothing wrong driving wise. The penalty was simply political in nature.
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Shrieker
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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Wait, why did the race not start right after the lapped runners were let go ?

🤔
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
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