2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:56 pm
Technically you could do it poles or race wins vs number of GP's entered and work it out as a percentage. That way you can fairly include the previous generations where number of races were a lot less. I worked that out a while back and was quite interesting numbers with a few hovering around the 30-33% mark of race wins vs GPs participated in.

But data can be made to look however you want it to, given enough tweaking and interpretation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_F ... er_records will give you that.

Percentages are the fairest way to look at career-long success, I think. It allows for the much higher numbers of races these days - this season is 22 races (?) which compares with Fangio's career of just 52, Clark's of 73, Stewart's 100 (99 starts).

And the same names come up - the likes of Fangio, Ascari, Clark. And Hamilton, of course.

We'll see Max in those lists by the end of his career, I'm sure.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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Is there any aspect of the Hungarian GP that you'd like to discuss? 8)
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:13 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:56 pm
Technically you could do it poles or race wins vs number of GP's entered and work it out as a percentage. That way you can fairly include the previous generations where number of races were a lot less. I worked that out a while back and was quite interesting numbers with a few hovering around the 30-33% mark of race wins vs GPs participated in.

But data can be made to look however you want it to, given enough tweaking and interpretation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_F ... er_records will give you that.

Percentages are the fairest way to look at career-long success, I think. It allows for the much higher numbers of races these days - this season is 22 races (?) which compares with Fangio's career of just 52, Clark's of 73, Stewart's 100 (99 starts).

And the same names come up - the likes of Fangio, Ascari, Clark. And Hamilton, of course.

We'll see Max in those lists by the end of his career, I'm sure.
I was just about to go and work it out based on the races won and races started, but thats done it all already. The percentage figures really are a bit eye-opening
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:27 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:13 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:56 pm
Technically you could do it poles or race wins vs number of GP's entered and work it out as a percentage. That way you can fairly include the previous generations where number of races were a lot less. I worked that out a while back and was quite interesting numbers with a few hovering around the 30-33% mark of race wins vs GPs participated in.

But data can be made to look however you want it to, given enough tweaking and interpretation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_F ... er_records will give you that.

Percentages are the fairest way to look at career-long success, I think. It allows for the much higher numbers of races these days - this season is 22 races (?) which compares with Fangio's career of just 52, Clark's of 73, Stewart's 100 (99 starts).

And the same names come up - the likes of Fangio, Ascari, Clark. And Hamilton, of course.

We'll see Max in those lists by the end of his career, I'm sure.
I was just about to go and work it out based on the races won and races started, but thats done it all already. The percentage figures really are a bit eye-opening
Yeah, quite so. And even more so when you remember that whilst Fangio was doing his thing in the 50s, there were 11 race weekend fatalities and 2 testing fatalities in F1 (and two additional deaths in 1959 after Fangio had retired). And during Clark's time in F1 in the 60s there were a further 10 fatalities and 2 testing fatalities (and two after Clark had himself died). These guys were dominating at a time when death stalked the paddock.

Perhaps there was less talent about back then - certainly there were lots of drivers at the time that only did one or two races. But one still had to be something special to win at circuits like the Nordschleife, especially man-handling a W196, a 250F or a tiny Lotus 33 made out of tissue paper.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Sieper
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Re: 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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If we are talking no comparison, then certainly that time indeed cannot be compared to now.

In cycling I feel we are still asking too much risk to be accepted. Deaths happen, especially during training on non closed roads. But the injuries sustained too. The pressure of the peloton, being upfront in case breakage happens, the descents. This year even over a path that had a loose top layer in the TDF.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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ringo
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Re: 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:44 am
and actual untruths are being used for that, Max beat Sergio 19-1 last year and 9-3 this year, that is 28-4. Perez cant actually beat him "1 out of 5 times." And 2 of the 3 times he beat Max this year was as Max had a red flag on his last run (Monaco and Baku). 1 of those caused by Perez himself. On both Runs Max was on his way to beat Perez. Max has long been taking only close to maximum risk on his last Q3 lap now, he is in the fight for a WDC, you must foremost not make mistakes. In fact, Max has since 2018 always had one of the largest gaps (in time difference) to his teammate (in qualy) of the whole grid.

Max is not the fastest over one lap is not a fact. His racedays are very good yes but so is his qualy.
what is 9 to 3? isnt that 1 out of 3 times when both start from a brand new car with no advantage to the other? So 1 out of 5 was very generous on my part.
My point still stands. We can only see how much " performance extraction" is taking place relative to a teammate and engineers simulation.

Win to pole ratio means nothing. One can say driver converted less poles into wins, or put a car on pole that wasnt quick enough for the race. So its a futile exercise to glean from those numbers.
As for Max, I wont comment on him as i dont think we have seen him go up against a top tier driver in the next car. He is not a champion slayer. So far he has got midfield guys as teammates who were not fully developed or were rushed into a seat without much support.
His best days will come when he leaves redbull.
So far he is in a sanitized bubble that screens his teammates to ensure he always has an advantage.
His greatness will come when he leaves that team, or its culture changes to getting another alpha driver and allow that driver to race freely.

As for George vs Lewis. It's an interesting match, but I am surprised that Lewis has the upper hand in qualifying pace and race pace when the car is dialed in and no experiments are taking place. I expected George to maybe challenge him like Rosberg did. Even though it took Nico 3 years.

It would be great if We had Leclerc or George or Lando in Max's team. Even old man Lewis.
For Sure!!

mzso
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Re: 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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ringo wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:12 am
what is 9 to 3? isnt that 1 out of 3 times when both start from a brand new car with no advantage to the other? So 1 out of 5 was very generous on my part.
Why are you making a fool of yourself? Despite you pretending the rest of his comment doesn't exist, we can all read it.

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Sieper
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Re: 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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ringo wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:12 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:44 am
and actual untruths are being used for that, Max beat Sergio 19-1 last year and 9-3 this year, that is 28-4. Perez cant actually beat him "1 out of 5 times." And 2 of the 3 times he beat Max this year was as Max had a red flag on his last run (Monaco and Baku). 1 of those caused by Perez himself. On both Runs Max was on his way to beat Perez. Max has long been taking only close to maximum risk on his last Q3 lap now, he is in the fight for a WDC, you must foremost not make mistakes. In fact, Max has since 2018 always had one of the largest gaps (in time difference) to his teammate (in qualy) of the whole grid.

Max is not the fastest over one lap is not a fact. His racedays are very good yes but so is his qualy.
what is 9 to 3? isnt that 1 out of 3 times when both start from a brand new car with no advantage to the other? So 1 out of 5 was very generous on my part.
My point still stands. We can only see how much " performance extraction" is taking place relative to a teammate and engineers simulation.

Win to pole ratio means nothing. One can say driver converted less poles into wins, or put a car on pole that wasnt quick enough for the race. So its a futile exercise to glean from those numbers.
As for Max, I wont comment on him as i dont think we have seen him go up against a top tier driver in the next car. He is not a champion slayer. So far he has got midfield guys as teammates who were not fully developed or were rushed into a seat without much support.
His best days will come when he leaves redbull.
So far he is in a sanitized bubble that screens his teammates to ensure he always has an advantage.
His greatness will come when he leaves that team, or its culture changes to getting another alpha driver and allow that driver to race freely.

As for George vs Lewis. It's an interesting match, but I am surprised that Lewis has the upper hand in qualifying pace and race pace when the car is dialed in and no experiments are taking place. I expected George to maybe challenge him like Rosberg did. Even though it took Nico 3 years.

It would be great if We had Leclerc or George or Lando in Max's team. Even old man Lewis.
You are not being generous at all. Even with this new car (not tailored to his need you say). Which in itself isn’t very generous as the car is overweight and was understeered at the beginning of the season. Exactly the things where a great driver as oppposed to a good one simply can’t make a difference on the limit as the car is not steering in when you want it to.

So max was outqualified 3 times of 9. This year. 1 time was in Monaco where Max was up by a good chunk on Checo and there was Checo, spun into the tunnel. Counting that as a Checo win is shall we say “generous”. Also in Baku Max was unable to finish his last/fastest Q3 lap due to a yellow flag.

It is quite clear that when it comes to Max you always like to downplay his achievements, to the point of it becoming farcical. You’re making it sound as if it is all nothing special and I am quite sure that is by intent.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:33 pm
ringo wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:12 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:44 am
and actual untruths are being used for that, Max beat Sergio 19-1 last year and 9-3 this year, that is 28-4. Perez cant actually beat him "1 out of 5 times." And 2 of the 3 times he beat Max this year was as Max had a red flag on his last run (Monaco and Baku). 1 of those caused by Perez himself. On both Runs Max was on his way to beat Perez. Max has long been taking only close to maximum risk on his last Q3 lap now, he is in the fight for a WDC, you must foremost not make mistakes. In fact, Max has since 2018 always had one of the largest gaps (in time difference) to his teammate (in qualy) of the whole grid.

Max is not the fastest over one lap is not a fact. His racedays are very good yes but so is his qualy.
what is 9 to 3? isnt that 1 out of 3 times when both start from a brand new car with no advantage to the other? So 1 out of 5 was very generous on my part.
My point still stands. We can only see how much " performance extraction" is taking place relative to a teammate and engineers simulation.

Win to pole ratio means nothing. One can say driver converted less poles into wins, or put a car on pole that wasnt quick enough for the race. So its a futile exercise to glean from those numbers.
As for Max, I wont comment on him as i dont think we have seen him go up against a top tier driver in the next car. He is not a champion slayer. So far he has got midfield guys as teammates who were not fully developed or were rushed into a seat without much support.
His best days will come when he leaves redbull.
So far he is in a sanitized bubble that screens his teammates to ensure he always has an advantage.
His greatness will come when he leaves that team, or its culture changes to getting another alpha driver and allow that driver to race freely.

As for George vs Lewis. It's an interesting match, but I am surprised that Lewis has the upper hand in qualifying pace and race pace when the car is dialed in and no experiments are taking place. I expected George to maybe challenge him like Rosberg did. Even though it took Nico 3 years.

It would be great if We had Leclerc or George or Lando in Max's team. Even old man Lewis.
You are not being generous at all. Even with this new car (not tailored to his need you say). Which in itself isn’t very generous as the car is overweight and was understeered at the beginning of the season. Exactly the things where a great driver as oppposed to a good one simply can’t make a difference on the limit as the car is not steering in when you want it to.

So max was outqualified 3 times of 9. This year. 1 time was in Monaco where Max was up by a good chunk on Checo and there was Checo, spun into the tunnel. Counting that as a Checo win is shall we say “generous”. Also in Baku Max was unable to finish his last/fastest Q3 lap due to a yellow flag.

It is quite clear that when it comes to Max you always like to downplay his achievements, to the point of it becoming farcical. You’re making it sound as if it is all nothing special and I am quite sure that is by intent.
Well said
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:33 pm

It is quite clear that when it comes to Max you always like to downplay his achievements, to the point of it becoming farcical. You’re making it sound as if it is all nothing special and I am quite sure that is by intent.
Some people have spent the last few years doing the same to certain multiple champion.

Disliking a driver for whatever reasons one has is one thing, deliberately down playing their record in order to try to make them look less able is just stupid. Sadly, it's a common tactic these days.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Sieper
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Re: 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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So, this translates to the highest honour then? Perhaps a good way to look at it.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

Soalar
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Re: 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:33 pm
ringo wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:12 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:44 am
and actual untruths are being used for that, Max beat Sergio 19-1 last year and 9-3 this year, that is 28-4. Perez cant actually beat him "1 out of 5 times." And 2 of the 3 times he beat Max this year was as Max had a red flag on his last run (Monaco and Baku). 1 of those caused by Perez himself. On both Runs Max was on his way to beat Perez. Max has long been taking only close to maximum risk on his last Q3 lap now, he is in the fight for a WDC, you must foremost not make mistakes. In fact, Max has since 2018 always had one of the largest gaps (in time difference) to his teammate (in qualy) of the whole grid.

Max is not the fastest over one lap is not a fact. His racedays are very good yes but so is his qualy.
what is 9 to 3? isnt that 1 out of 3 times when both start from a brand new car with no advantage to the other? So 1 out of 5 was very generous on my part.
My point still stands. We can only see how much " performance extraction" is taking place relative to a teammate and engineers simulation.

Win to pole ratio means nothing. One can say driver converted less poles into wins, or put a car on pole that wasnt quick enough for the race. So its a futile exercise to glean from those numbers.
As for Max, I wont comment on him as i dont think we have seen him go up against a top tier driver in the next car. He is not a champion slayer. So far he has got midfield guys as teammates who were not fully developed or were rushed into a seat without much support.
His best days will come when he leaves redbull.
So far he is in a sanitized bubble that screens his teammates to ensure he always has an advantage.
His greatness will come when he leaves that team, or its culture changes to getting another alpha driver and allow that driver to race freely.

As for George vs Lewis. It's an interesting match, but I am surprised that Lewis has the upper hand in qualifying pace and race pace when the car is dialed in and no experiments are taking place. I expected George to maybe challenge him like Rosberg did. Even though it took Nico 3 years.

It would be great if We had Leclerc or George or Lando in Max's team. Even old man Lewis.
You are not being generous at all. Even with this new car (not tailored to his need you say). Which in itself isn’t very generous as the car is overweight and was understeered at the beginning of the season. Exactly the things where a great driver as oppposed to a good one simply can’t make a difference on the limit as the car is not steering in when you want it to.

So max was outqualified 3 times of 9. This year. 1 time was in Monaco where Max was up by a good chunk on Checo and there was Checo, spun into the tunnel. Counting that as a Checo win is shall we say “generous”. Also in Baku Max was unable to finish his last/fastest Q3 lap due to a yellow flag.

It is quite clear that when it comes to Max you always like to downplay his achievements, to the point of it becoming farcical. You’re making it sound as if it is all nothing special and I am quite sure that is by intent.
Agreed, but it's kind of what I alluded to in my first post when I introduced myself. I didn't intent to keep posting, but here I go again :D . I think we all should avoid this kind of fanboyism or just plain hatred towards the drivers. And concentrate on the thing we all have in common (at least I hope). The love of the sport that is F1.

These kinds of comments will always devolve into something we all hate to read. And most of you would nuance your words would the setting be different instead of a forum where Internet anonymity isn't there as a shield.
Last edited by Soalar on Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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So are we still talking about my driver is the fastest after the mods have cleaned up?
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ringo
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Re: 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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Its amazing when i reae back my post to detect the "hatred". There was none.
Summary:
qualifying ratio 1:3. New car for checo and Max.
And i tried to bring the thread back on track hy saying no one can know how much is extracted from a car. Drivers can only be conpared to teammates and simulation. Where's the lie or hatred?
Anyhow as it relates to this race, did Sainz have a setup issue, or did he warm the tyres incorrectly. I just cannot see why leclerc was that much faster and why Lewis beat him on the same strategy in a slower car.
For Sure!!

LM10
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Re: 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

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djones wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 4:05 pm
No doubt in my mind Mercedes will be the fastest car at the next race and a lot of the remaining ones too.

P1 while Ferrari and Redbull are still floor flexing.
Didn't age well...