Clutch usage while on track

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Sieper
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Re: Clutch usage while on track

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TimW wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:48 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:41 pm
TimW wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:37 pm


I don't think he was operating the clutch. He reported clutch slip, and they told him to press 'fail 20' and some other changes. They told him it would impact drivability.

My guess a sensor issue, and the sensor bypass caused sub optimal clutch operation(but less slip).
I would think a "failed" sensor would then resort to a derived answer by doing math on other sensor readings. Thus, becoming a psudo-assumption, and sub-optimal over a direct reading.
I would love to know the details behind stuff like this. They should introduce a new rule that team-driver communications are only allowed if they are explained afterwards on f1technical!
Maybe someone like Sam Collins who apparently reads here and is the technical analyst at Sky could ask this to the engineer that supports clutch operation in any of the teams and report back here how it actually works.

Max did lose some time though, pace went down, when it first appeared. Only later on when they “released” him the pace was back. If that was just a tire life thing and he was driving with a sub optimal clutch reading all the time or if they optimized the software on using other sources (and use that via fail20) we won’t likely know.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

michl420
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Re: Clutch usage while on track

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:14 am
Why would the clutch on a formula one car be used during a race?. For a formula one clutch to slip when it is not being used, even for a bad clutch, the release mechanism will have to be plying a part in it.
Is it used as it delivers torque from one shaft to another, every second. (I know what you mean, but a clutch works per definition when it is closed) :wink:

michl420
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Re: Clutch usage while on track

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TimW wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:54 pm
Last year McLaren (and others) wanted to change the clutch after sprint races, because of worries their clutch would not survive a sprint + full race distance. The issue was not so much the starts and pit stops, but the total number of gear shifts IIRC.

Which means it is active during gear shifts
It does not automatic mean the clutch mechanism is activ. As I understand it, the clutch receives more torque spikes (more gear shifts).

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Zynerji
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Re: Clutch usage while on track

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michl420 wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 5:45 pm
TimW wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:54 pm
Last year McLaren (and others) wanted to change the clutch after sprint races, because of worries their clutch would not survive a sprint + full race distance. The issue was not so much the starts and pit stops, but the total number of gear shifts IIRC.

Which means it is active during gear shifts
It does not automatic mean the clutch mechanism is activ. As I understand it, the clutch receives more torque spikes (more gear shifts).
I mean, this would be obvious "traction control" would it not?

michl420
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Re: Clutch usage while on track

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:01 pm
michl420 wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 5:45 pm
TimW wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:54 pm
Last year McLaren (and others) wanted to change the clutch after sprint races, because of worries their clutch would not survive a sprint + full race distance. The issue was not so much the starts and pit stops, but the total number of gear shifts IIRC.

Which means it is active during gear shifts
It does not automatic mean the clutch mechanism is activ. As I understand it, the clutch receives more torque spikes (more gear shifts).
I mean, this would be obvious "traction control" would it not?
No, I mean it from a pure mechanic view. A disc clutch can slip undesirable (or maybe planed, I don't know) during a gear shift. If it happens too often, the clutch will fail.

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coaster
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Re: Clutch usage while on track

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Maybe honda is emulating a slipper style clutch much like in motogp, it limits the tire spin or slip on corner exits.
Is it illegal to this under fia rules?

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dans79
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Re: Clutch usage while on track

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coaster wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:53 pm
Maybe honda is emulating a slipper style clutch much like in motogp, it limits the tire spin or slip on corner exits.
Is it illegal to this under fia rules?
that is 100% against the rules!

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -08-16.pdf
9.2.2 Traction control
No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven
wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive torque demand by the
driver.
191 103 103 7

johnny comelately
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Re: Clutch usage while on track

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hardingfv32 wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:57 pm
Interesting that an assumed negative impact on drivability did not seem to hurt his pace noticeably.

So maybe they just dialed out some of the 'shift smoothing' that was provided by the slipping the clutch. The driver was caught out by the harsher clutch application when it was used for the first time.

I wonder if someone just had the correct solution in their head, code and all, or do they use a program that lists the possible causes and solutions for a given issue is input into the program. The latest airliners are starting to do this instead of using a big manual. Time is very important in both applications.

Brian
At the 45 second mark, that control may affect clutch function??
As it relates to what Tommy Cookers said:
"a few years ago a Honda paper showed how F1 clutch torque transmission was varied during shifts to minimise jerkiness
by another of those servo-grade electro-hydraulic actuators - and for about 10-20 milliseconds"