2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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bluechris wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:00 am
For me? whatever huppens in the last 10 laps must be RED Flagged without the ability to change tyres. Either way noone had count to pit in the last 10 laps so the only thing huppening really is all the field to come together and we get also a standing start again which is great.
Liberty want the races to finish under green flag, we also as fans of F1 want that even if its bad for someone who had disapear in the distance before the Red Flag. Its the best scenario in my mind to keep everyone happy and have racing till the end.
You could allow tyre changes if you wsnted a proper spring though. Might be the best way to do it.
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maxxer
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Re: 2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:48 pm
There’s no need for a red flag unless the chaos is bad enough it warrants a red flag.

Red flag isn’t there to create a last lap showdown,
Yeap this is how Formula 1 works , if you dont like it go watch nascar or something

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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maxxer wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:31 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:48 pm
There’s no need for a red flag unless the chaos is bad enough it warrants a red flag.

Red flag isn’t there to create a last lap showdown,
Yeap this is how Formula 1 works , if you dont like it go watch nascar or something
I just cant see how it would ever benefit the sport restarting the race with 1 or 2 laps left. Imagine if they did that at every race. It would be chaos at turn 1 at some tracks.

It would turn the sport into a showcase.

Imagine a football match having a penalty shootout to determine the winner 5minutes from the end.

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wogx
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Re: 2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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De Vries :lol:

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Kukułka zwyczajna, kukułka pospolita – nazwy ludowe: gżegżółka, zazula (Cuculus canorus) – gatunek średniego ptaka wędrownego z podrodziny kukułek (Cuculinae) w rodzinie kukułkowatych (Cuculidae). Jedyny w Europie Środkowej pasożyt lęgowy. Zamieszkuje strefę umiarkowaną.

Edax
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Re: 2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:27 pm
Mogster wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:15 pm
Edax wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:24 pm

You mean like green-white-checkered in nascar? It has its advantages but I also see some drawbacks.

One is you have to allocate a mandatory fuel reserve to be able to deal with the extra laps which would add a few kg’s to the cars which are already pretty heavy. Otherwise nobody would make the finish.

And in some aspects it is also not completely fair. You already see how difficult it is to bring a white tire back after a SC or VSC. With a red flag they would not stand a chance. You could easily drop from 1 to 10 in one lap, just because you were on the wrong tire.
The BTCC adds laps under SC to the end of the race, to a maximum of 4 iirc. The teams fuel for race distance +4. F1 could do the similar, add SC laps to race distance within the last 10% of the race. Of course the teams would have to fuel for the maximum race distance possible.

Unnecessary red flags just feel gamey.
Exactly this! (I said the same on the SC car thread) 4laps of fuel probably is only a few kilos of fuel. That way the race is neutralised to a set number of laps, people can change tyres if they have a free stop (same as any other time in the race), we dont have a last lap shootout, theres no uncalled for red flags to reset the grid and lose the race from a bad start etc.

Its just a simple solution that is sooo easy to implement. You can guarantee the teams wouldnt even need 4 laps of fuel if they can go super fuel saving behind the safety car, so they might actually only need 3 additional laps of racing fuel.
I find a weight for BTCC of 1370 kgs which is over 500 kg’s heavier than f1. I can imagine that a bit of fuel has little impact there

For f1 4 laps would be 7-8kg’s of extra fuel. And the only way to enforce it is to add it to the residual fuel requirement. Otherwise it would be much too tempting to underfuel since the risk of having to need it is less than 5%. So you would be sacrificing a few tenths on every lap of every race for that one occasion you need it.

It is of course doable, but frankly I find the cars already borderline obese as they are. I wonder wether this would really make the racing better.

Cs98
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Re: 2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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cliffgamerz wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:00 pm
Cs98 wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:29 am
cliffgamerz wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:10 am
I re-watched the last part of the race again to see what went wrong, on lap 47 Ricardo came to halt on entry to second Lesmo corner where there was no escape route to clear the car by marshals, so it should have been a double waved yellows and or virtual safety car should have been put up immediately, but instead a yellow on the second sector was put up for full 1 lap or to be precise around a full minute to change status to FULL SAFETY CAR on OSD only and not VIRTUAL SAFETY CAR which was on lap 48, but safety car wasn't out on track till lap 51 started and it caught Russell and not Max!? Now to my surprise what happened between lap 48 till 51 where was safety car and no media or people are discussing this matter, on sky commentary on Karun questioned on lap 50 where is safety car on track but it was still not on track but on pit-lane. FIA seriously needs to answer this procedure as it was not according to normal standard procedure, last year Abu Dhabi is a different thing and its not related to what happened here, the system is flawed and i was surprised no teams nor media or fans as discussing this topic. Also it wasn't a crash and no debris or damage to barrier was there to halt the safe restart to race which was bizarre, at least one lap racing was possible because car was cleared off track at end of lap 51. All these careful observations were made by pausing the broadcast and taking notes, so anyone else can do the same to confirm my findings.

I can also understand the anger of Tifosi's shown at end of the race, but honestly it was so wrong of anyone to Boo at drivers for something they didn't have control at or even do anything wrong from their end, it is pathetic if the crowd threw foul language and hatred towards Max's family or team members, those people should be banned from entry to any F1 events or any events. To be just mad or angry at FIA for what happened is fair, but that doesn't mean doing death threats or calling names, instead it needs proper investigation and review like last years last race. Also i see people on this forum just show a hate towards other fans, so i never comment always,i just want to share my unbiased opinion and if anyone is offended by anything i say i will say sorry in advance as i don't intend to hurt anyone's feelings, we are just fans, let the drivers and teams do the fighting on track, lets just enjoy the races as they are as long as they are fair and fun to watch.
The safety car came out much earlier than lap 51. It’s just they didn’t film it. The timing was very poor because the SC came out right after Verstappen/Leclerc passed. And then they pitted on the next lap. Leading to a very long chase after the SC. So they caught the SC several laps after it came out.
It was only mentioned on HUD on TV overlay, the actual car maybe came out on lap 51, just re-watch the race and see on lap 51 the car exited the pits when camera caught safety car. i don't have the F1TV feed as its not available in my region to prove the same as that could prove that properly. If someone has that maybe they can share some views on it, and i am not saying you are wrong or i am right, its unclear until proven.
The SC came out on lap 48. I have F1TV, just checked.

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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Edax wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:36 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:27 pm
Mogster wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:15 pm


The BTCC adds laps under SC to the end of the race, to a maximum of 4 iirc. The teams fuel for race distance +4. F1 could do the similar, add SC laps to race distance within the last 10% of the race. Of course the teams would have to fuel for the maximum race distance possible.

Unnecessary red flags just feel gamey.
Exactly this! (I said the same on the SC car thread) 4laps of fuel probably is only a few kilos of fuel. That way the race is neutralised to a set number of laps, people can change tyres if they have a free stop (same as any other time in the race), we dont have a last lap shootout, theres no uncalled for red flags to reset the grid and lose the race from a bad start etc.

Its just a simple solution that is sooo easy to implement. You can guarantee the teams wouldnt even need 4 laps of fuel if they can go super fuel saving behind the safety car, so they might actually only need 3 additional laps of racing fuel.
I find a weight for BTCC of 1370 kgs which is over 500 kg’s heavier than f1. I can imagine that a bit of fuel has little impact there

For f1 4 laps would be 7-8kg’s of extra fuel. And the only way to enforce it is to add it to the residual fuel requirement. Otherwise it would be much too tempting to underfuel since the risk of having to need it is less than 5%. So you would be sacrificing a few tenths on every lap of every race for that one occasion you need it.

It is of course doable, but frankly I find the cars already borderline obese as they are. I wonder wether this would really make the racing better.
I dont know the exact fuel consumption of a F1 engine so hard for me to comment regarding the weight. I think the possibility for a underfuel would add a bit more into the excitement. We will never know fuel loads, or how much the cars finish with, but if there was a risk a team could underfuel to have a bit advantage, with the risk of a safety car coming out and extra laps, it would add a bit more of a strategy into it.

BTCC have a lot more weight, but I guess they are in the same boat as F1, all teams will want to have the lightest car possible and some might only account for race distance on fuel rather than possible extra 4 laps.

Maybe with the 2026 regs, and more energy deployment it could become more feasible, without the concern for extra 6-7kg of fuel.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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wogx wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:33 pm
De Vries :lol:

https://www.wykop.pl/cdn/c3201142/comme ... R1gT10.jpg
I think he earned it this week, considering what he did with what he had and how long to train, - but he only gets this bonus once.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:48 pm
wogx wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:33 pm
De Vries :lol:

https://www.wykop.pl/cdn/c3201142/comme ... R1gT10.jpg
I think he earned it this week, considering what he did with what he had and how long to train, - but he only gets this bonus once.
I think we see him driving in Singapore 😏

morefirejules08
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Re: 2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:34 pm
maxxer wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:31 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:48 pm
There’s no need for a red flag unless the chaos is bad enough it warrants a red flag.

Red flag isn’t there to create a last lap showdown,
Yeap this is how Formula 1 works , if you dont like it go watch nascar or something
I just cant see how it would ever benefit the sport restarting the race with 1 or 2 laps left. Imagine if they did that at every race. It would be chaos at turn 1 at some tracks.

It would turn the sport into a showcase.

Imagine a football match having a penalty shootout to determine the winner 5minutes from the end.
But in football if you have an extended stoppage anywhere in that half then the time is added in at the end so the equivalent in f1 would be to add the safety car laps onto the end of the GP

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Big Tea
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Re: 2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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morefirejules08 wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:12 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:34 pm
maxxer wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:31 pm


Yeap this is how Formula 1 works , if you dont like it go watch nascar or something
I just cant see how it would ever benefit the sport restarting the race with 1 or 2 laps left. Imagine if they did that at every race. It would be chaos at turn 1 at some tracks.

It would turn the sport into a showcase.

Imagine a football match having a penalty shootout to determine the winner 5minutes from the end.
But in football if you have an extended stoppage anywhere in that half then the time is added in at the end so the equivalent in f1 would be to add the safety car laps onto the end of the GP
My immediate response was -the cars would have to be stopped during that period otherwise they would run out of fuel.
But, I suppose there is an option of making a set amount of 'spare' fuel be included in the base weight, and allow the appropriate amount to be discounted, but this would have to be for quite a small amount
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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Summary of the thread for the last few days.

TL:DR - fans of drivers that did well are happy with the system, fans of drivers that didn't do well aren't.

Shock, and indeed, amazed.

It's almost as if some people are new to the game.

Really?

No, surely not.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

mendis
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Re: 2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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Big Tea wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:57 pm
morefirejules08 wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:12 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:34 pm


I just cant see how it would ever benefit the sport restarting the race with 1 or 2 laps left. Imagine if they did that at every race. It would be chaos at turn 1 at some tracks.

It would turn the sport into a showcase.

Imagine a football match having a penalty shootout to determine the winner 5minutes from the end.
But in football if you have an extended stoppage anywhere in that half then the time is added in at the end so the equivalent in f1 would be to add the safety car laps onto the end of the GP
My immediate response was -the cars would have to be stopped during that period otherwise they would run out of fuel.
But, I suppose there is an option of making a set amount of 'spare' fuel be included in the base weight, and allow the appropriate amount to be discounted, but this would have to be for quite a small amount
Current cars use anywhere between 2.5 to 3 kilos of fuel per lap based on circuits. Even if they have to carry 3 to 4 laps worth of extra fuel, it's going to add pain to already cargo container sized cars.

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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mendis wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:41 am
Big Tea wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:57 pm
morefirejules08 wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:12 pm


But in football if you have an extended stoppage anywhere in that half then the time is added in at the end so the equivalent in f1 would be to add the safety car laps onto the end of the GP
My immediate response was -the cars would have to be stopped during that period otherwise they would run out of fuel.
But, I suppose there is an option of making a set amount of 'spare' fuel be included in the base weight, and allow the appropriate amount to be discounted, but this would have to be for quite a small amount
Current cars use anywhere between 2.5 to 3 kilos of fuel per lap based on circuits. Even if they have to carry 3 to 4 laps worth of extra fuel, it's going to add pain to already cargo container sized cars.
110Litres of fuel the tanks for 2022. Circa 740grammes per litre of fuel.... 81.4kg of fuel carried around. Monza is 80% full throttle so probably a good amount of fuel being burned. 53laps of Monza. 2.5-3kg of fuel per lap would have your guesses at 132.5kg-159kg of fuel. That's nearly double what you say is needed per lap.

Add onto that teams will add extra fuel in for extra formation laps, and they need a minimum of 1L at the end of the race for sampling.

morefirejules08
morefirejules08
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Re: 2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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Big Tea wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:57 pm
morefirejules08 wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:12 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:34 pm


I just cant see how it would ever benefit the sport restarting the race with 1 or 2 laps left. Imagine if they did that at every race. It would be chaos at turn 1 at some tracks.

It would turn the sport into a showcase.

Imagine a football match having a penalty shootout to determine the winner 5minutes from the end.
But in football if you have an extended stoppage anywhere in that half then the time is added in at the end so the equivalent in f1 would be to add the safety car laps onto the end of the GP
My immediate response was -the cars would have to be stopped during that period otherwise they would run out of fuel.
But, I suppose there is an option of making a set amount of 'spare' fuel be included in the base weight, and allow the appropriate amount to be discounted, but this would have to be for quite a small amount
My point was football has rules in place to account for stoppages so Chris’s analogy was was incorrect. I’m not necessarily saying F1 should add safety car laps onto the end of the race although that could be one option but there should be something in place to avoid the likes of AD last season and Monza this.