Is the RB18 dominant?

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Andres125sx
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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Winners in 2022 by car:

FERRARI
RED BULL RACING
FERRARI
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
FERRARI
FERRARI
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
MERCEDES
RED BULL RACING


But Red Bull wasn´t dominant, just that they were lucky with some SCs :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Stu
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:44 am
Winners in 2022 by car:

FERRARI
RED BULL RACING
FERRARI
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
FERRARI
FERRARI
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
MERCEDES
RED BULL RACING


But Red Bull wasn´t dominant, just that they were lucky with some SCs :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I also think that there is someone in the Ferrari strategy team that is on a RedBull salary….🤦‍♂️😉
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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Stu wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:57 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:44 am
Winners in 2022 by car:

FERRARI
RED BULL RACING
FERRARI
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
FERRARI
FERRARI
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
MERCEDES
RED BULL RACING


But Red Bull wasn´t dominant, just that they were lucky with some SCs :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I also think that there is someone in the Ferrari strategy team that is on a RedBull salary….🤦‍♂️😉
Agree :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now seriously, as I said previously we usually talk about car domination, when it´s team domination what counts. Anyone will question if RBR has been dominant as a team?

DChemTech
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:44 am
Winners in 2022 by car:

FERRARI
RED BULL RACING
FERRARI
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
FERRARI
FERRARI
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
RED BULL RACING
MERCEDES
RED BULL RACING


But Red Bull wasn´t dominant, just that they were lucky with some SCs :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol:
The only post with relevant numbers so far is the one last page that does state Ferrari were -0.05 compared to RB before the summer break. Which seems to support what several people here were arguing - the car was not dominant before summer, after summer it did clearly have the upper hand.

And yes, in the end it's team dominance that matters. But that is not what this thread is about, it clearly considers the RB18, not Red Bull racing...

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Vanja #66
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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DChemTech wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:33 am
The only post with relevant numbers so far is the one last page that does state Ferrari were -0.05 compared to RB before the summer break.
It's irrelevant because it's an arbitrary number. What was the basis for it? What did it take into account? How were the retirements (all 8 of them for all 4 cars) counted?

If a car shares top spot for half a season and than takes over for the rest of it and doesn't take all wins in that period simply because of one driver unwilling to leave space on track - it's a dominant car overall.

It doesn't take a car to be 1s a lap faster than second best to be dominant. 0.1s a lap with better top speed on straights to protect from overtakes is more than enough and RB18 had a lot more than 0.1s a lap in the second half - even in those arbitrary analyses.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

DChemTech
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:42 am
DChemTech wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:33 am
The only post with relevant numbers so far is the one last page that does state Ferrari were -0.05 compared to RB before the summer break.
It's irrelevant because it's an arbitrary number. What was the basis for it? What did it take into account? How were the retirements (all 8 of them for all 4 cars) counted?

If a car shares top spot for half a season and than takes over for the rest of it and doesn't take all wins in that period simply because of one driver unwilling to leave space on track - it's a dominant car overall.

It doesn't take a car to be 1s a lap faster than second best to be dominant. 0.1s a lap with better top speed on straights to protect from overtakes is more than enough and RB18 had a lot more than 0.1s a lap in the second half - even in those arbitrary analyses.
Maybe it's an 'arbitrary number' and whether or not it is representative can certainly be discussed, but at least it is an attempt to put a number on something that actually considers some form of car performance instead of just citing the number of wins - which can be due to other circumstances than car dominance.

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Vanja #66
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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DChemTech wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:00 am
Maybe it's an 'arbitrary number' and whether or not it is representative can certainly be discussed, but at least it is an attempt to put a number on something that actually considers some form of car performance instead of just citing the number of wins - which can be due to other circumstances than car dominance.
So how would you quantify hypothetical dominance of a car that is second fastest and 1s a lap off, but wins every race because the fastest car retires every time with technical issue? Is the fastest car at all relevant at that point?

Context of wins is important, but shear number of wins this season aren't out of context to affirm RB18 dominance. A car is both the chassis and the engine and Ferrari was lacking a more reliable engine in the first half and had a handicap on both the chassis and engine in second half.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

DChemTech
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:08 am
DChemTech wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:00 am
Maybe it's an 'arbitrary number' and whether or not it is representative can certainly be discussed, but at least it is an attempt to put a number on something that actually considers some form of car performance instead of just citing the number of wins - which can be due to other circumstances than car dominance.
So how would you quantify hypothetical dominance of a car that is second fastest and 1s a lap off, but wins every race because the fastest car retires every time with technical issue? Is the fastest car at all relevant at that point?

Context of wins is important, but shear number of wins this season aren't out of context to affirm RB18 dominance. A car is both the chassis and the engine and Ferrari was lacking a more reliable engine in the first half and had a handicap on both the chassis and engine in second half.
That's exactly the example I brought up on one of the earlier pages as to why not to judge on wins alone, there is no guarantee that a dominant car will win the majority of races, or even a single race, if the driver is bad and/or consistently bins it, or if the strategy is so poor that it costs them 30s every race.

What irritates me is that many people here use the simple reasoning that the RB18 is dominant because Red Bull Racing won most races - and that's a fallacy of affirming the consequent. RB winning most races is a sign that the team is dominant, it does not necessarily follow from that that the car is dominant. Yet when you point that out, it is either ignored or ridiculed.

Now whether the RB18 was or was not dominant over the season even doesn't interest me that much. My opinion is that it was not before summer and it was after, and yes, in my view that distinction can be made because the conditions changed. That opinion can be challenged, and whether that means it was dominant over the entire season or not is a good point for discussion. But at least when discussing that, people should use metrics that actually relate to car performance and not simply cite the number of wins. Or alternatively, the title of the thread should be changed to "Is Red Bull Racing dominant?"

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DiogoBrand
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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I mean, if you have to ask if a car is dominant, it most likely is.
Verstappen beat the all time record for wins on a season with it, and the only competition we saw was Ferrari with all their might trying as hard as they did to get second against Red Bull's second and unremarkable driver.

Mosin123
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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Max just easily won the drivers championship, he did it with out breaking sweat, with none of his exhausted looking climbs out of the car, every race he has won looked easy. And he hasn’t worried about any competition challenging him. Redbull have looked smug all season...



***Mod edit***
Irrelevant gaslighting comment removed
Last edited by Stu on Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Gaslighting comment removed

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Stu
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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The combination of the RB18, MV & RedBull teamwork WERE dominant, the car became (largely) dominant, but wasn’t when tyre strategy wasn’t called correctly or when MV was too aggressive.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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Sieper
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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MV was not too agressive in any race (imho) bar Singapore and Brazil ( I think you are referring to?). Those where the only moments where he tried something that failed this year.

Singapore you cannot overtake (between similarly paced cars) due to a team mistake (underfueling) instead of starting from pole he had to start from P10. He overtook everybody up to Lando (who in Signapore, for the speed difference needed there) had a similarly paced (in Lando's hand that is, he is very fast imho) car, there was 1 opportunity to take him (at the restart) and then maybe, just maybe, on tire strategy still win the race.

Max went for it, as he hoped to keep the chances of the 9 win streak open and failed. No crash, just back to the back and try again. If he needed to maximize points he probably would have stayed behind Lando (I hope :-)) but he didn't need to maximize points (championship was all but sealed), he needed to win the race. For me it was a fair attempt and not overly aggressive.

Lewis f.e. waited behind Sainz all race and his one try ended in the barriere. Too aggressive?

The other example, Brazil, where they didnt get the car set-up right, Max already said it during FP1 and then you are stuck in a sprint weekend. In any case, even with that he had the better restart then Lewis and then imho you should be allowed to give it a try, he was alongside Lewis. Is that too aggressive? He had the better restart.

Schumacher in his Mercedes and Kimi in the Lotus had exactly similar carbon copy move and Schumacher let Kimi the room on the inside of turn 2. Lewis did not with Max. I was very disappointed with that penalty. No need to re discuss that here but just I feel that those 2 moments were not overly aggressive, both moments warranted a move is my point.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

harty71
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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Bahrain seems a lifetime ago, Leclerc really put the manners on Verstappen, completely out drove him in an inferior car on the day.

How our hopes were built up with that battle, from then on it's as though Ferrari didn't want to win the championships, really poor outing from them with a capable car.

napoleon1981
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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harty71 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:18 pm
Bahrain seems a lifetime ago, Leclerc really put the manners on Verstappen, completely out drove him in an inferior car on the day.

How our hopes were built up with that battle, from then on it's as though Ferrari didn't want to win the championships, really poor outing from them with a capable car.
If you call that putting the manners on someone, im curious what you would call the rest of the season.

caddy
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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harty71 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:18 pm
Bahrain seems a lifetime ago, Leclerc really put the manners on Verstappen, completely out drove him in an inferior car on the day.

How our hopes were built up with that battle, from then on it's as though Ferrari didn't want to win the championships, really poor outing from them with a capable car.
Inferior car on the day? :lol: