2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[JordanMugen]

Do you think Merc’s current struggles are due to spending restrictions?

There was no cap on engine personnel costs at the time so losing engine staff to Red Bull Powertrains was probably not due to the cap. (These loss of experienced personnel likely partly responsible for the 2022 power unit's relatively lower advantage or slight deficit than previously. Of course, that is partly on Petronas for doing a poor job compared to ExxonMobil, BP or Shell on E10 fuel too which is nothing directly to do with those two operations - Mercedes HPP or Ford RBPT.)

However both Mercedes and Red Bull losing staff to other Silverstone-area teams is certainly an issue created by the budget cap.

More than Merc they are terrified of Hamilton smacking their golden boy if and when it happens. Deep down they know once Merc is sorted and on par with RB what is going to happen.

Reasonable Formula 1 fans are more than aware that Verstappen, Russell, Hamilton, Leclerc (and maybe still Alonso and Norris) are all at a similar level. The championship outcome(s) were these Tier 1 drivers to be paired in the same car is likely to be decided by luck and circumstance (e.g., Prost and Senna with one WDC each, Hamilton and Alonso tied on points).

Formula 1 is an engineering competition. The team's chosen drivers are just the final component to get the job done. Mercedes are certainly at an advantage as the only team with two tier 1 drivers, their current driver lineup is excellent.

[DGP123]

Tier 1 is Max & Lewis. That’s it. Throwing £40m at Lewis is evidence of that. Can already see that given a better car, Lewis looks rejuvenated, and motivated again. Russell is good, and it’s the best driver pairing out there, but he doesn’t have the race pace/management of Lewis, and the team know it.

[Big Tea]

Tier 1 is Max & Lewis. That’s it. Throwing £40m at Lewis is evidence of that. Can already see that given a better car, Lewis looks rejuvenated, and motivated again. Russell is good, and it’s the best driver pairing out there, but he doesn’t have the race pace/management of Lewis, and the team know it.

How do you chose between Lewis and Newey? I know some are excluded from the cap, but it is still cost to the team.
It is not all in one area such as one driver or one designer, if bits fall of the car it is not going to win much, bur we di not often here of other engineers who do the donkey work.
It needs a full and complementary team (except at Ferrari apparently lol)

[ValeVida46]

As for the performance. I expect ebbs and flows. Anyone thinking that Merc are going to bury Aston to the tune of 35 seconds every weekend from here on out is getting way ahead of themselves. AMR clearly underperformed at the same time that Merc had one of it's strongest outings on a track that suits them, and not Aston.

The track is a mix of corners and demands that reflect well at most the other tracks on the calendar(non street tracks).
Said before and I'll say it again, there's a reason it's a traditional test track.
What is clear is that the upgrade worked and gave Mercedes a clear step ahead of both Aston and Ferrari who both came with upgrades themselves.

Also, there is a preconceived bias that you assume the AMR23 isn't suited to the Catalunya track whereas the W14 is.
Given the demands on the car will be reflected at other race tracks this year, does this mean the AMR wont be suited to other forthcoming race tracks when it comes to gauging the effectiveness of Mercedes upgrade?
The reason I say this is because certain judgments were made in Monaco, a track that does not give constructive upgrade feedback(citations from Newey, Costa, Steiner, Vassuer, Ham, etc if required), but the moment it works for Mercedes it's because AMR "clearly underperformed"

Also, I don't believe anyone expects Mercedes to be beating Aston to the tune of 35 seconds every weekend.
The framing of that statement is a goalpost moving exercise, especially in view of the comments made about the upgrades in Monaco.

[organic]

The framing of that statement is a goalpost moving exercise, especially in view of the comments made about the upgrades in Monaco.

For the last 18 months or so, the Merc team threads have seen sustained posting by a coterie of Red Bull fans who, it appears, both enjoy seeing Mercedes struggle and also wish to down play any chance that the team might get back to the front. I expect they will become more vociferous if/when Merc's performance continues to improve. And should Merc manage to catch Red Bull (tricky when the latter has a head start thanks to nefarious activity), they will go quiet.

Mercedes perform well, its because their competitors have an off day.

Is it bias if it's demonstrably true



AMR's swing looks normal to you? I would rather look at the data than just say something to fit the sentiment you wish to read here.. Should we not all be doing the same on a technical forum?!

Nobody is talking about Mercedes breaking the budget cap...

We are all the ones contributing to the thread, so a constant moanfest about a couple of people who sometimes contribute to the thread is not very constructive. Provide good counter-arguments, discussions and then overall the thread is better quality rather than moan about users who you know read these passive aggressive comments

[hollus]

Actually, everybody, please cut the personal digs.

Post, not poster.

On topic, please.

[ValeVida46]

Is it bias if it's demonstrably true

https://preview.redd.it/cjnneipaz54b1.p ... ed3e04ed11

AMR's swing looks normal to you? I would rather look at the data than just say something to fit the sentiment you wish to read here.. Should we not all be doing the same on a technical forum?!

Nobody is talking about Mercedes breaking the budget cap...

We are all the ones contributing to the thread, so a constant moanfest about a couple of people who sometimes contribute to the thread is not very constructive. Provide good counter-arguments, discussions and then overall the thread is better quality rather than moan about users who you know read these passive aggressive comments

If it's a technical graph how does it overcome the fact Mercedes brought their upgrade here?

That graph is absolutely moot if it doesn't account for the very upgrades we have seen implemented over the last race.
And I'd rather you didn't post personal attacks please.

[GrizzleBoy]

For the last 18 months or so, the Merc team threads have seen sustained posting by a coterie of Red Bull fans who, it appears, both enjoy seeing Mercedes struggle and also wish to down play any chance that the team might get back to the front. I expect they will become more vociferous if/when Merc's performance continues to improve. And should Merc manage to catch Red Bull (tricky when the latter has a head start thanks to nefarious activity), they will go quiet.

Mercedes perform well, its because their competitors have an off day.

Is it bias if it's demonstrably true

https://preview.redd.it/cjnneipaz54b1.p ... ed3e04ed11

AMR's swing looks normal to you? I would rather look at the data than just say something to fit the sentiment you wish to read here.. Should we not all be doing the same on a technical forum?!

Nobody is talking about Mercedes breaking the budget cap...

We are all the ones contributing to the thread, so a constant moanfest about a couple of people who sometimes contribute to the thread is not very constructive. Provide good counter-arguments, discussions and then overall the thread is better quality rather than moan about users who you know read these passive aggressive comments

If you delete the Monaco result due to it being a track where a cars ability has far less bearing on the race result, then both Ferrari and Aston are both on a clear downward trajectory, while Merc are on an upward trajectory.

[ValeVida46]

If you delete the Monaco result due to it being a track where a cars ability has far less bearing on the race result, then both Ferrari and Aston are both on a clear downward trajectory, while Merc are on an upward trajectory.

That's clear as day.

And this being a technical forum, could also be explained by Mercedes upgrades relative to Aston and Ferrari.

[organic]

Is it bias if it's demonstrably true

https://preview.redd.it/cjnneipaz54b1.p ... ed3e04ed11

AMR's swing looks normal to you? I would rather look at the data than just say something to fit the sentiment you wish to read here.. Should we not all be doing the same on a technical forum?!

Nobody is talking about Mercedes breaking the budget cap...

We are all the ones contributing to the thread, so a constant moanfest about a couple of people who sometimes contribute to the thread is not very constructive. Provide good counter-arguments, discussions and then overall the thread is better quality rather than moan about users who you know read these passive aggressive comments

If it's a technical graph how does it overcome the fact Mercedes brought their upgrade here?

That graph is absolutely moot if it doesn't account for the very upgrades we have seen implemented over the last race.
And I'd rather you didn't post personal attacks please.

Where's the "personal attack"

[organic]

All I'm saying is that AMR and Ferrari both had terrible races. They didn't get the tyres working

Whilst RB didn't use the optimal strategy (1 step harder tyres than necessary)

It's a front limited circuit which we saw at Australia will favour the W14

The cold temperatures are temps in which the w14 works well (also seen at Australia and is a trait carried over from the w13)

Barcelona race was all about managing the tyres and getting the most out of them. Mercedes did that excellently and resulted in a very strong performance

But performance swings can happen at the same time as upgrades are brought and it can be misleading. Partial causation is absolutely logical.. I just don't think you can unpick how much of the performance was made due to a step forward - as of now that is simply unknown

And yet this is being construed as doom-mongering etc rather than what it is: stating what should be obvious..

[ValeVida46]

rather than moan about users who you know read these passive aggressive comments

Look, Mercedes finished 2nd and 3rd and we have comments here surrounding their form as explained by Aston and Ferrari both having an off day. You've attempted to (constructively I'll add) validate that view with a graph.
Then you follow with an accusation of passive aggression(deconstructively I'll add). I'd rather deal with the first point.

Mercedes finished 2nd and 3rd. We then had a response suggesting it due to the lack of form of it's 2 competitors,
not Mercedes switching concepts and actually looking decent in the race. Even Juzh posted some data validating Mercedes race pace from FP3 saying he expected Lewis and George to be well up after the first 10 laps.
This was very accurate as it happens.
So there is literally nothing technical in saying that 2 teams had an off day when it's speculative and totally ignores the fact Mercedes brought the upgrades that pushed them up relative the other 2.

So in essence, the framing of the good weekend has nothing to do with Mercedes work in ditching zeropods, bringing in a host of upgrades, and has everything to do with AM and fezza having an off weekend.
Can you find the positive in that framing?

[organic]

Yes I think that you make a good point. The pace was there for the entire weekend to be 2nd quickest. It carried over from FPs, especially FP3. Mick must have done some good work in the sim on Friday evening.


In hindsight I see how I was antagonistic and I apologize. Wasn't constructive and indeed hypocritical.

Back OT: There is no doubt the upgrade caused a step forward. Let's see how it applies to other tracks. I SUSPECT that the upgrade was worth 3 tenths and that will bring the car level with AMR or slightly ahead until AMR bring their new floor, but with swings either way depending on the circuit limitation. Merc seem to make huge strides forward relative to AMR/RB on front limited circuits which would make sense as Merc have been struggling with the rear end of the car since preseason.

After Canada if the conditions aren't crazy then a lot more can be said, and concrete conclusions can be drawn after Silverstone. There have been many false dawns with the w13/w14 already, so it's best to be wary IMO.

[chrisc90]

I don’t think anybody is doubting the fact Mercedes had a good excellent weekend.

People are suggesting to give it a few more races and see what comes of the new upgrades they have brought.

It’s a fairly major change from what has been on the car for 18month’s. So in basing the performance benefits of the upgrades they brought to Monaco and Barcelona (the latter being the only representative track) it’s only fair to come to a true conclusion after a few more races.
It is not only important to measure the race pace to Red Bull, but also that to the competitors to get a true picture of what’s happening.

Here’s hoping they have took a big step forwards and they can match/beat the pace of Ferrari/AMR and close the gap down to Red Bull. I do think the performance of RB/Merc/Ferrari/AMR should be compared from a single weekend.

If you wanted to go 1 step further you could add mclaren and alpine and haas onto that race pace graphic above and get a more true picture on the seemingly lacking performance of Fer and AMR this weekend. But without truely diffing into data and knowing how the car was setup for a single race, it will be a hard comparison to realistically make

[ValeVida46]

Yes I think that you make a good point. The pace was there for the entire weekend to be 2nd quickest. It carried over from FPs, especially FP3. Mick must have done some good work in the sim on Friday evening.


In hindsight I see how I was antagonistic and I apologize. Wasn't constructive and indeed hypocritical.

Back OT: There is no doubt the upgrade caused a step forward. Let's see how it applies to other tracks. I SUSPECT that the upgrade was worth 3 tenths and that will bring the car level with AMR or slightly ahead until AMR bring their new floor, but with swings either way depending on the circuit limitation. Merc seem to make huge strides forward relative to AMR/RB on front limited circuits which would make sense as Merc have been struggling with the rear end of the car since preseason.

After Canada if the conditions aren't crazy then a lot more can be said, and concrete conclusions can be drawn after Silverstone. There have been many false dawns with the w13/w14 already, so it's best to be wary IMO.

It's all good.

I have zero doubts that Aston will be on it in Canada, and have the potential surpass Mercedes in terms of performance. It's a fairly unique track layout too and will pose a different set of problems.
But besides the intrinsic nature of the track itself, Aston and Ferrari will be bringing updates to their cars which may translate in a redressing of balance. We wont know until we see that though, and yes it is one race, but one race at a track that has been a very good indicator for other venues that are to come like Silverstone.

The pointers for me is that the car can ride at a more optimal ride height now, whereas prior to the upgrade the W14 had a baked in higher rear ride height to mitigate the problems of the W13, which then came with top speed penalties down the straights. It seems that the shift to pods has allowed them to run it closer to the ground, which then has the added bonus of a better top speed.
If we add the front suspension update which has given positive feedback from the drivers, and has a better compliance, it's a compounding solution that bodes well for the rest of the season but is still heavily caveated with not knowing what Aston will bring or if Ferrari can sort their car out.
Will be interesting to see what happens to the rear tyres at Canada, but also how fast the Mercedes can go down the long straight leading to the wall of champions. Perform well there and Mercedes can be optimistic for certain.