2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[PlatinumZealot]

I dont believe it is scaling doesn't make sense to be scaling. You have say a hundred peice model, if one part is not scaled properly, the model simply wont come together. If you are taking about scaling of measurements then this would be revealed with some sort of calibration done before testing.

A tolerance problem is what I believe was happening...

[TimW]

More likely it is just the correlation with the wind tunnel data, and the fudge factors to make them match not working on the correct parameters. Red Bull had similar issues in 2017 and it took them quite a while to sort it out as well.

RB getting it right is not necessarily 100% based on skill, there is also luck involved. With a change of aero regulations, if your models work perfectly that saves you a lot, if you find out that they don't, you have a hill to climb like Merc is doing.

It would be an incredible achievement if they manage to match RB this year, since their car is always compromised by the chassis and impact structures being designed for a different aero concept. They will surely make a step once they address that next year.

[InsaneX_Badger]

More likely it is just the correlation with the wind tunnel data, and the fudge factors to make them match not working on the correct parameters. Red Bull had similar issues in 2017 and it took them quite a while to sort it out as well.

RB getting it right is not necessarily 100% based on skill, there is also luck involved. With a change of aero regulations, if your models work perfectly that saves you a lot, if you find out that they don't, you have a hill to climb like Merc is doing.

It would be an incredible achievement if they manage to match RB this year, since their car is always compromised by the chassis and impact structures being designed for a different aero concept. They will surely make a step once they address that next year.

I'll be incredibly surprised if they manage to be within 2-3 tenths pure pace by the end of the year regardless of track characteristic.

[PlatinumZealot]

If they are within two tenths then it means the car is actually 4 to 5 tenths slower. That Max is only pushing as fast as he needs to go.

[taperoo2k]

I dont believe it is scaling doesn't make sense to be scaling. You have say a hundred peice model, if one part is not scaled properly, the model simply wont come together. If you are taking about scaling of measurements then this would be revealed with some sort of calibration done before testing.

A tolerance problem is what I believe was happening...

If the scaling/tolerances were off even by a tiny amount it would cause a host of problems including wind tunnel data. Don't forget Mercedes had job adverts for modelling roles and so on a while back. With a team as a big as Mercedes it might take a while for the mistake to be noticed. We'll probably never know for certain, because it would be embarrassing for Mercedes to admit they made such a schoolboy error.

I'd expect Mercedes to get closer to Red Bull over the season, but nothing that sees Max pushing the RB19 to it's ultimate pace/limits. He's pretty much cruising this season. We'll see if the noises Mercedes are making about the car going back performance wise in Canada is true or the usual Mercedes underplaying it's chances.

[PlatinumZealot]

I dont believe it is scaling doesn't make sense to be scaling. You have say a hundred peice model, if one part is not scaled properly, the model simply wont come together. If you are taking about scaling of measurements then this would be revealed with some sort of calibration done before testing.

A tolerance problem is what I believe was happening...

If the scaling/tolerances were off even by a tiny amount it would cause a host of problems including wind tunnel data. Don't forget Mercedes had job adverts for modelling roles and so on a while back. With a team as a big as Mercedes it might take a while for the mistake to be noticed. We'll probably never know for certain, because it would be embarrassing for Mercedes to admit they made such a schoolboy error.

I'd expect Mercedes to get closer to Red Bull over the season, but nothing that sees Max pushing the RB19 to it's ultimate pace/limits. He's pretty much cruising this season. We'll see if the noises Mercedes are making about the car going back performance wise in Canada is true or the usual Mercedes underplaying it's chances.

Not saying it wont be problems. But I am ruling out scaling. You simply would fire even an undergraduate level engineering student if scaling was the issue. That's just outright incomoetence.

Rather go with tolerance or some sensor calibration or model calibration. Those are gremlins that can occur in a complex system. Scaling is too easy to spot.

[Hammerfist]

If they are within two tenths then it means the car is actually 4 to 5 tenths slower. That Max is only pushing as fast as he needs to go.

Imo they need to aim to beat rbr on pace by the end of the year. Rbr will probably stop bringing upgrades soon and their cost cap penalty should affect their performance on track at the end of the year. If Merc can’t catch them in these circumstances then you can already forget about 2024.

[ValeVida46]

If they are within two tenths then it means the car is actually 4 to 5 tenths slower. That Max is only pushing as fast as he needs to go.

Imo they need to aim to beat rbr on pace by the end of the year. Rbr will probably stop bringing upgrades soon and their cost cap penalty should affect their performance on track at the end of the year. If Merc can’t catch them in these circumstances then you can already forget about 2024.

If it happens great, but wholly unrealistic in my opinion. In season development is stifled for everyone under the Budget cap, and RB are 1 second up the road.
Even with Red Bull cost cap penalty, that does not stop them from bringing updates themselves. But the championship is already a foregone conclusion so their focus will be for next year to consolidate the gap.
Factor in the compromises Merc have to make with the chassis optimised for a different concept, and the limitations placed on progress relative to RB are apparent.

[cplchanb]

I dont believe it is scaling doesn't make sense to be scaling. You have say a hundred peice model, if one part is not scaled properly, the model simply wont come together. If you are taking about scaling of measurements then this would be revealed with some sort of calibration done before testing.

A tolerance problem is what I believe was happening...

If the scaling/tolerances were off even by a tiny amount it would cause a host of problems including wind tunnel data. Don't forget Mercedes had job adverts for modelling roles and so on a while back. With a team as a big as Mercedes it might take a while for the mistake to be noticed. We'll probably never know for certain, because it would be embarrassing for Mercedes to admit they made such a schoolboy error.

I'd expect Mercedes to get closer to Red Bull over the season, but nothing that sees Max pushing the RB19 to it's ultimate pace/limits. He's pretty much cruising this season. We'll see if the noises Mercedes are making about the car going back performance wise in Canada is true or the usual Mercedes underplaying it's chances.

didnt they fire a number of aero staff around the allison/elliot swap? iirc there were reports that the wind tunnel components were incorrectly made leading to these significant calibration errors in their design work

[Hammerfist]

If they are within two tenths then it means the car is actually 4 to 5 tenths slower. That Max is only pushing as fast as he needs to go.

Imo they need to aim to beat rbr on pace by the end of the year. Rbr will probably stop bringing upgrades soon and their cost cap penalty should affect their performance on track at the end of the year. If Merc can’t catch them in these circumstances then you can already forget about 2024.

If it happens great, but wholly unrealistic in my opinion. In season development is stifled for everyone under the Budget cap, and RB are 1 second up the road.
Even with Red Bull cost cap penalty, that does not stop them from bringing updates themselves. But the championship is already a foregone conclusion so their focus will be for next year to consolidate the gap.
Factor in the compromises Merc have to make with the chassis optimised for a different concept, and the limitations placed on progress relative to RB are apparent.

If you have a penalty that restricts your wind tunnel time whilst your leading the championship by a mile you’re not going to apply precious wind tunnel time to the concept that has already won. You allocate that time to next year. This is why I think Redbull in the second half will be vulnerable. Merc has no such concerns and whatever works on this years car will apply to next year. They cannot afford to stop developing this years car early. They are currently behind. If they’re ever gonna catch Redbull we will find out after the summer break. I don’t see how that’s so unrealistic.

[mendis]

Imo they need to aim to beat rbr on pace by the end of the year. Rbr will probably stop bringing upgrades soon and their cost cap penalty should affect their performance on track at the end of the year. If Merc can’t catch them in these circumstances then you can already forget about 2024.

If it happens great, but wholly unrealistic in my opinion. In season development is stifled for everyone under the Budget cap, and RB are 1 second up the road.
Even with Red Bull cost cap penalty, that does not stop them from bringing updates themselves. But the championship is already a foregone conclusion so their focus will be for next year to consolidate the gap.
Factor in the compromises Merc have to make with the chassis optimised for a different concept, and the limitations placed on progress relative to RB are apparent.

If you have a penalty that restricts your wind tunnel time whilst your leading the championship by a mile you’re not going to apply precious wind tunnel time to the concept that has already won. You allocate that time to next year. This is why I think Redbull in the second half will be vulnerable. Merc has no such concerns and whatever works on this years car will apply to next year. They cannot afford to stop developing this years car early. They are currently behind. If they’re ever gonna catch Redbull we will find out after the summer break. I don’t see how that’s so unrealistic.

Doesn't that apply to every team, including Red Bull? Unless Red Bull has some innovative, externally visible changes that are easily copyable, they wouldn't bring it now. But anything under the hood or mechanical in nature would be beneficial to be introduced this year, tested on track and carried forward.

[ValeVida46]

If you have a penalty that restricts your wind tunnel time whilst your leading the championship by a mile you’re not going to apply precious wind tunnel time to the concept that has already won. You allocate that time to next year. This is why I think Redbull in the second half will be vulnerable. Merc has no such concerns and whatever works on this years car will apply to next year. They cannot afford to stop developing this years car early. They are currently behind. If they’re ever gonna catch Redbull we will find out after the summer break. I don’t see how that’s so unrealistic.

Merc have more limitations than Red Bull as to what will work carrying updates forward. There are things they cannot change this year like the rear suspension/gearbox pick up points, the driver position relative the chassis etc.
Red Bull have clearly got a direction they are following whereas Mercedes have changed course and are still utilising a platform from the previous direction. This will have implications on what Mercedes can bring, what will work and if it's even worth spending restricted budgetary allowance for somethings they cannot carry forwards in 2024 for reasons I've outlined.

That's not to say they cannot bring updates or have a good chance of finishing second. But the idea of them closing the gap to Red Bull this year seems very fanciful to me.

[AMG.Tzan]

Imo they need to aim to beat rbr on pace by the end of the year. Rbr will probably stop bringing upgrades soon and their cost cap penalty should affect their performance on track at the end of the year. If Merc can’t catch them in these circumstances then you can already forget about 2024.

If it happens great, but wholly unrealistic in my opinion. In season development is stifled for everyone under the Budget cap, and RB are 1 second up the road.
Even with Red Bull cost cap penalty, that does not stop them from bringing updates themselves. But the championship is already a foregone conclusion so their focus will be for next year to consolidate the gap.
Factor in the compromises Merc have to make with the chassis optimised for a different concept, and the limitations placed on progress relative to RB are apparent.

If you have a penalty that restricts your wind tunnel time whilst your leading the championship by a mile you’re not going to apply precious wind tunnel time to the concept that has already won. You allocate that time to next year. This is why I think Redbull in the second half will be vulnerable. Merc has no such concerns and whatever works on this years car will apply to next year. They cannot afford to stop developing this years car early. They are currently behind. If they’re ever gonna catch Redbull we will find out after the summer break. I don’t see how that’s so unrealistic.

They can’t catch Red Bull let’s be real!

And that’s got to do with them starting the season almost 1 second off! They can’t claw back so much performance with in season upgrades! We aren’t in 2009 where teams bolted on the double diffuser for the first time and their car went 0,5 seconds quicker instantly!

There isn’t a magic bullet Mercedes can bring to their car to make it 0,5-0,7 seconds quicker! After all their chassis and rear suspension are designed around the old concept, so any updates won’t bring as much performance as changing these two alone!

All I’m hoping for is that they’ve at least got a proper development direction for next year that gets them to within 0,1-0,3 of Red Bull, which will still be remarkable considering the amount of time Red Bull has spent on their own concept since 2022!

I hope for some Red Bull “bad luck” at least that will gave us a win or two! Maybe a Brazil one off like last year may be on the cards…

[214270]

Anybody know exactly what D”Ambrosio is doing for the team? What precisely is his role?

[maygun]

Anybody know exactly what D”Ambrosio is doing for the team? What precisely is his role?

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1022656/1 ... e-mercedes