2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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langedweil
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I think Merc just needs a few years in the non-at-(but-pretty-close-to)-the-top position to become a bit more strategy-savvy.
During 2014-2020 (maybe even 2021) they spent about all their time on deciding how much they'd turn down that PU .. just enough to secure the wins, whilst not be the team that sticks out by a 3s suplus per lap. They literally never seemed bothered about strategy. But I bet they will .. sooner or later.
Doubt it'll be 2023 though.
HuggaWugga !

selvam_e2002
selvam_e2002
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Merc mastered in V6 era so they know in and out and more successful team in v6 era for 8 years. I bet it is matter of time to bounce back with proper Aero concept. They will be very close to RB or equal to RB but 100% top of Ferrari. This year it is going to be Merc VS RB. The new Team principle in Ferrari can take some time to adopt in the team.

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Airshifter
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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langedweil wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:12 am
I think Merc just needs a few years in the non-at-(but-pretty-close-to)-the-top position to become a bit more strategy-savvy.
During 2014-2020 (maybe even 2021) they spent about all their time on deciding how much they'd turn down that PU .. just enough to secure the wins, whilst not be the team that sticks out by a 3s suplus per lap. They literally never seemed bothered about strategy. But I bet they will .. sooner or later.
Doubt it'll be 2023 though.
I think you might be correct to some extent, even beyond the strategy department. Merc came out so dominant in the turbo hybrid era that they had time to concern themselves with items just to ensure continued dominance, rather than ever really playing catch up at all. DAS and sophisticated suspension systems didn't just create themselves, and I agree that strategy was often lacking. But without challenges, it was hard for them to grow in certain areas. To some extent adversity creates growth by forcing the adaptation to the adversity.

But the last couple seasons might start turning that around as well. Though they managed the constructors for the 8th time, it was by a slim margin. And last year they got it wrong enough to put them well into catch up mode and make them work harder. It could be a good thing really.

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langedweil
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Airshifter wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:08 am
langedweil wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:12 am
I think Merc just needs a few years in the non-at-(but-pretty-close-to)-the-top position to become a bit more strategy-savvy.
During 2014-2020 (maybe even 2021) they spent about all their time on deciding how much they'd turn down that PU .. just enough to secure the wins, whilst not be the team that sticks out by a 3s suplus per lap. They literally never seemed bothered about strategy. But I bet they will .. sooner or later.
Doubt it'll be 2023 though.
I think you might be correct to some extent, even beyond the strategy department. Merc came out so dominant in the turbo hybrid era that they had time to concern themselves with items just to ensure continued dominance, rather than ever really playing catch up at all. DAS and sophisticated suspension systems didn't just create themselves, and I agree that strategy was often lacking. But without challenges, it was hard for them to grow in certain areas. To some extent adversity creates growth by forcing the adaptation to the adversity.

But the last couple seasons might start turning that around as well. Though they managed the constructors for the 8th time, it was by a slim margin. And last year they got it wrong enough to put them well into catch up mode and make them work harder. It could be a good thing really.
Exactly, they nailed that PU so much better than the rest of the field, they could easily shift 95% to next years car. That's how DAS stuff was born. They had way way more time at hand, and were therefore dominant for years. Well deserved by the way, it was on merit. In hindsight maybe the dominance was a bit too long. But still, a great effort.
Now they have to step up on way more levels, pretty giant leap ...
HuggaWugga !

mendis
mendis
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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langedweil wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:27 am
Airshifter wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:08 am
langedweil wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:12 am
I think Merc just needs a few years in the non-at-(but-pretty-close-to)-the-top position to become a bit more strategy-savvy.
During 2014-2020 (maybe even 2021) they spent about all their time on deciding how much they'd turn down that PU .. just enough to secure the wins, whilst not be the team that sticks out by a 3s suplus per lap. They literally never seemed bothered about strategy. But I bet they will .. sooner or later.
Doubt it'll be 2023 though.
I think you might be correct to some extent, even beyond the strategy department. Merc came out so dominant in the turbo hybrid era that they had time to concern themselves with items just to ensure continued dominance, rather than ever really playing catch up at all. DAS and sophisticated suspension systems didn't just create themselves, and I agree that strategy was often lacking. But without challenges, it was hard for them to grow in certain areas. To some extent adversity creates growth by forcing the adaptation to the adversity.

But the last couple seasons might start turning that around as well. Though they managed the constructors for the 8th time, it was by a slim margin. And last year they got it wrong enough to put them well into catch up mode and make them work harder. It could be a good thing really.
Exactly, they nailed that PU so much better than the rest of the field, they could easily shift 95% to next years car. That's how DAS stuff was born. They had way way more time at hand, and were therefore dominant for years. Well deserved by the way, it was on merit. In hindsight maybe the dominance was a bit too long. But still, a great effort.
Now they have to step up on way more levels, pretty giant leap ...
Losing ground at the beginning of a brand new regulations means, catching up till eternity. It's even more complicated when PU and Fuel is all frozen. It would be interesting to see if Mercedes can do a come back, in a budget restricted era and where a lot of their talent has been poached by rivals, including the recent news of James taking a few critical engineers with him.

Mercedes were never behind on PU power, ever since they came back in F1 and for the first time, the rivals seemed to have taken a step on them. Even in the Red Bull dominance era of 2010-13, Mercedes was ahead on absolute grunt.

Bill
Bill
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mendis wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:05 am
langedweil wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:27 am
Airshifter wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:08 am


I think you might be correct to some extent, even beyond the strategy department. Merc came out so dominant in the turbo hybrid era that they had time to concern themselves with items just to ensure continued dominance, rather than ever really playing catch up at all. DAS and sophisticated suspension systems didn't just create themselves, and I agree that strategy was often lacking. But without challenges, it was hard for them to grow in certain areas. To some extent adversity creates growth by forcing the adaptation to the adversity.

But the last couple seasons might start turning that around as well. Though they managed the constructors for the 8th time, it was by a slim margin. And last year they got it wrong enough to put them well into catch up mode and make them work harder. It could be a good thing really.
Exactly, they nailed that PU so much better than the rest of the field, they could easily shift 95% to next years car. That's how DAS stuff was born. They had way way more time at hand, and were therefore dominant for years. Well deserved by the way, it was on merit. In hindsight maybe the dominance was a bit too long. But still, a great effort.
Now they have to step up on way more levels, pretty giant leap ...
Losing ground at the beginning of a brand new regulations means, catching up till eternity. It's even more complicated when PU and Fuel is all frozen. It would be interesting to see if Mercedes can do a come back, in a budget restricted era and where a lot of their talent has been poached by rivals, including the recent news of James taking a few critical engineers with him.

Mercedes were never behind on PU power, ever since they came back in F1 and for the first time, the rivals seemed to have taken a step on them. Even in the Red Bull dominance era of 2010-13, Mercedes was ahead on absolute grunt.
merc and ferrari during the v8 period were using reliability update to gain more power at the expense of other manufactures who were strictly following the rules.there v10 in 2005 was notoriously unreliable and is the reason kimi didn't win the champ that year .Merc was behind when ferrari was running their souped up pu ,so they went always dominant.

f1jcw
f1jcw
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Bill wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:05 am
mendis wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:05 am
langedweil wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:27 am


Exactly, they nailed that PU so much better than the rest of the field, they could easily shift 95% to next years car. That's how DAS stuff was born. They had way way more time at hand, and were therefore dominant for years. Well deserved by the way, it was on merit. In hindsight maybe the dominance was a bit too long. But still, a great effort.
Now they have to step up on way more levels, pretty giant leap ...
Losing ground at the beginning of a brand new regulations means, catching up till eternity. It's even more complicated when PU and Fuel is all frozen. It would be interesting to see if Mercedes can do a come back, in a budget restricted era and where a lot of their talent has been poached by rivals, including the recent news of James taking a few critical engineers with him.

Mercedes were never behind on PU power, ever since they came back in F1 and for the first time, the rivals seemed to have taken a step on them. Even in the Red Bull dominance era of 2010-13, Mercedes was ahead on absolute grunt.
merc and ferrari during the v8 period were using reliability update to gain more power at the expense of other manufactures who were strictly following the rules.there v10 in 2005 was notoriously unreliable and is the reason kimi didn't win the champ that year .Merc was behind when ferrari was running their souped up pu ,so they went always dominant.
Say what lol

Renault was one of the worst for tweaking their engine with reliability upgrades.

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atanatizante
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:18 am

...

Maybe RB are using some kind of AI or super computer or something.
For sure Exxon-Mobile received a little help from Oracle`s A.I. programs just to verify those tenths of millions of fuel formulas which needed to be tested in order to reach the best one regarding peak power output vs consumption.

I can assure you of this from my professional point of view explained in more detail here:

viewtopic.php?p=1107257#p1107257
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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atanatizante wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:56 pm
ringo wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:18 am

...

Maybe RB are using some kind of AI or super computer or something.
For sure Exxon-Mobile received a little help from Oracle`s A.I. programs just to verify those tenths of millions of fuel formulas which needed to be tested in order to reach the best one regarding peak power output vs consumption.

I can assure you of this from my professional point of view explained in more detail here:

viewtopic.php?p=1107257#p1107257
Exxon Mobil didn't make the fuel. Honda did: https://jp.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-20 ... /10413347/

Bill
Bill
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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f1jcw wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:40 am
Bill wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:05 am
mendis wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:05 am
Losing ground at the beginning of a brand new regulations means, catching up till eternity. It's even more complicated when PU and Fuel is all frozen. It would be interesting to see if Mercedes can do a come back, in a budget restricted era and where a lot of their talent has been poached by rivals, including the recent news of James taking a few critical engineers with him.

Mercedes were never behind on PU power, ever since they came back in F1 and for the first time, the rivals seemed to have taken a step on them. Even in the Red Bull dominance era of 2010-13, Mercedes was ahead on absolute grunt.
merc and ferrari during the v8 period were using reliability update to gain more power at the expense of other manufactures who were strictly following the rules.there v10 in 2005 was notoriously unreliable and is the reason kimi didn't win the champ that year .Merc was behind when ferrari was running their souped up pu ,so they went always dominant.
Say what lol

Renault was one of the worst for tweaking their engine with reliability upgrades.
so what they made perfomance gains under the guise of reliability updates ,thats cheating.fia didnt do a particular good jop clamping down on dodgy items ,it is one of the reasons Honda was considering leaving f1.ones they did something ferrari was exposed after running an illegal device that circumvent fuel flow system .merc lost some of oil burning tricks and dont seem to have other tricks up their sleeve and they too got exposed.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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selvam_e2002 wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:22 am
Merc mastered in V6 era so they know in and out and more successful team in v6 era for 8 years. I bet it is matter of time to bounce back with proper Aero concept. They will be very close to RB or equal to RB but 100% top of Ferrari. This year it is going to be Merc VS RB. The new Team principle in Ferrari can take some time to adopt in the team.

Don't be so sure of that. So often we see a Ferrari 'disarmed' my human mistakes. The car usually seems to be there-about even in the poor years. Time after time the human has prevented a win or podium, so lets hope 'Fred V' gets his whiphand out and see what happens
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

f1jcw
f1jcw
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Bill wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:28 pm
f1jcw wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:40 am
Bill wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:05 am

merc and ferrari during the v8 period were using reliability update to gain more power at the expense of other manufactures who were strictly following the rules.there v10 in 2005 was notoriously unreliable and is the reason kimi didn't win the champ that year .Merc was behind when ferrari was running their souped up pu ,so they went always dominant.
Say what lol

Renault was one of the worst for tweaking their engine with reliability upgrades.
so what they made perfomance gains under the guise of reliability updates ,thats cheating.fia didnt do a particular good jop clamping down on dodgy items ,it is one of the reasons Honda was considering leaving f1.ones they did something ferrari was exposed after running an illegal device that circumvent fuel flow system .merc lost some of oil burning tricks and dont seem to have other tricks up their sleeve and they too got exposed.
What is the point of all this except another rant against Merc and others.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I actually think the strategy will be ten times better with James out of the picture. A lot of the times all that was needed was a bit of street smarts, when Jame's face was stuck in a computer screen.
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chrisc90
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:41 pm
I actually think the strategy will be ten times better with James out of the picture. A lot of the times all that was needed was a bit of street smarts, when Jame's face was stuck in a computer screen.
I think it will vastly depend on whether Merc can drop the 'we have track position' philosophy they have. They need to learn to adapt to the race rather than thinking about how good it looks to have a driver in the lead or on the podium positions. Too many examples to list where they have lost races by not pitting for a better set of tyres for example. Just look at Zandvoort '22 where Russell had to practically beg for a faster better tyre and the pitwall reluctantly give him the stop. You can see how that one turned out for the driver in the lead. Especially given everyone around them also swapped.

Until they can do strong bold strategy moves like that, especially behind a safety car, they will always struggle. You need a strategy team that thinks like Red Bull strategists do in order to have better strategy.

If the current team have learned from James and his ways, rather than the occasional risk taking or throwing a mega bold strategy out there to test, then its just going to be a continuation of what there always is/was under James' direction.

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AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:41 pm
I actually think the strategy will be ten times better with James out of the picture. A lot of the times all that was needed was a bit of street smarts, when Jame's face was stuck in a computer screen.
James reportedly hadn't been attending races anymore.