2023 Pre-Season Testing - Bahrain International Circuit, Feb 23 - 25

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Relative resources and time spent on regulations is important. There is big difference in that regard now compared to 2014

[F1Krof]

The only people who dislikes the current regulation are the same group of people that loved the horrible 2014 one(ie Hamilton fans). We have closer racing now, pretty and fast cars, and the field is more bunched up.

Closer racing? We had one team run away with most of the wins. We have people not like the regulation changes due to this who are not Mercedes fans. We have restricted development, how is it any different from 2014.

I assume you're a Hamilton/Mercedes fan?

Yes, one team won most of the races, but it was in no way anywhere near what Merc were doing in 2014-2016.

Others only won because of Merc failures. Ferrari and Mercedes won races on pure pace in 2022.

If Charles hadn't been throwing it off the road, and Ferrari been putting their car on the wrong strategy, we would have actually seen a good battle. If Merc hadn't taken 12 races to get on top of their car, we would have seen a good battle.

2023 will be closer than 2014-2016 ever was. 2023 was about people getting cars wrong with a new concept. 2014 was about people getting cars right, and still being a second off because they didn't have a Merc engine.

Edit: Also, 2014 became an engine formula as you ignored me saying before.

Merc had their engine on the Dyno since 2008, and were pushing the rules towards an engine formula they favoured. They totally mugged off the rest of F1 with an engine that had 15% more power than the rest of the grid.

It made Williams second best for god's sake - how can you possibly compare 2022 to the engine formula failure that gifted a very good driver 80 wins, and wrongly propelled him into "great" territory?

Merc had their engine on the Dyno since 2008, and were pushing the rules towards an engine formula they favoured. They totally mugged off the rest of F1 with an engine that had 15% more power than the rest of the grid.

This is just completely ridiculous. 15% more power! Man come on!

It made Williams second best for god's sake...

You know McLaren and Force India had a Mercedes engines as well? Yet they finished 5th a 6th respectively. And also Williams wasn't 2nd best, they finished 3rd.

I realize you can be one of those fans who despise Mercedes, but common, let's just be more objective please. Let's just not pull out completely dumbfounded numbers.

[DChemTech]

but the incompetence of two teams robbed us from an excellent end like in 2021.

So.. 2014 era was all too bad Mercedes too dominant.
2022, was bad cause the other teams were incompetent and not the fault of the mighty redbull.

How come the other teams in 2014 were not classed as incompetent.
Please lets not have double standards.

There was a big difference in relative performance in 2014 compared to 2022 - that 1 team wins consistently does not mean it was never tense, or that the team always wins by an enormous margin. And things would likely have been better were it not for midseason rulechanges.

Besides that, 2014 in itself was not so much the problem - it was that over 7 years the competition could hardly catch up. I personally have no issue with a year of dominance, but after 3 or 4 years things do start to get a bit boring.

[Xyz22]

2014 was borderline hilarious... I still remember Hungary and I will never forget it. Vettel with DRS and tow was LOSING time compared to the Williams ahead that had no DRS or tow. I was laughing at the TV, lmao.

[mendis]

Closer racing? We had one team run away with most of the wins. We have people not like the regulation changes due to this who are not Mercedes fans. We have restricted development, how is it any different from 2014.

I assume you're a Hamilton/Mercedes fan?

Yes, one team won most of the races, but it was in no way anywhere near what Merc were doing in 2014-2016.

Others only won because of Merc failures. Ferrari and Mercedes won races on pure pace in 2022.

If Charles hadn't been throwing it off the road, and Ferrari been putting their car on the wrong strategy, we would have actually seen a good battle. If Merc hadn't taken 12 races to get on top of their car, we would have seen a good battle.

2023 will be closer than 2014-2016 ever was. 2023 was about people getting cars wrong with a new concept. 2014 was about people getting cars right, and still being a second off because they didn't have a Merc engine.

Edit: Also, 2014 became an engine formula as you ignored me saying before.

Merc had their engine on the Dyno since 2008, and were pushing the rules towards an engine formula they favoured. They totally mugged off the rest of F1 with an engine that had 15% more power than the rest of the grid.

It made Williams second best for god's sake - how can you possibly compare 2022 to the engine formula failure that gifted a very good driver 80 wins, and wrongly propelled him into "great" territory?

Merc had their engine on the Dyno since 2008, and were pushing the rules towards an engine formula they favoured. They totally mugged off the rest of F1 with an engine that had 15% more power than the rest of the grid.

This is just completely ridiculous. 15% more power! Man come on!

It made Williams second best for god's sake...

You know McLaren and Force India had a Mercedes engines as well? Yet they finished 5th a 6th respectively. And also Williams wasn't 2nd best, they finished 3rd.

I realize you can be one of those fans who despise Mercedes, but common, let's just be more objective please. Let's just not pull out completely dumbfounded numbers.

IIRC FIA hadn't mandated all PUs from a supplier had to have exact same engine software for both factory and customer teams, until 2017 or 18? They had mandated hardware parity but not software. Mercedes could have controlled the customer team's PU utilisation. Besides, customer teams cannot dictate the engine fitment according to their aero needs, which factory team can, which is a big boost in how you design a car. We can go on listing the advantages. McLaren had gone bad in 2013 and they haven't recovered yet.

[Mosin123]

I assume you're a Hamilton/Mercedes fan?

Yes, one team won most of the races, but it was in no way anywhere near what Merc were doing in 2014-2016.

Others only won because of Merc failures. Ferrari and Mercedes won races on pure pace in 2022.

If Charles hadn't been throwing it off the road, and Ferrari been putting their car on the wrong strategy, we would have actually seen a good battle. If Merc hadn't taken 12 races to get on top of their car, we would have seen a good battle.

2023 will be closer than 2014-2016 ever was. 2023 was about people getting cars wrong with a new concept. 2014 was about people getting cars right, and still being a second off because they didn't have a Merc engine.

Edit: Also, 2014 became an engine formula as you ignored me saying before.

Merc had their engine on the Dyno since 2008, and were pushing the rules towards an engine formula they favoured. They totally mugged off the rest of F1 with an engine that had 15% more power than the rest of the grid.

It made Williams second best for god's sake - how can you possibly compare 2022 to the engine formula failure that gifted a very good driver 80 wins, and wrongly propelled him into "great" territory?

I dont remember Williams finishing the season 2nd in 2014 - till now. 2014 - 2016 seen more action between 1st n 2nd than we did last year. even if it was just between the Mercs, least it was a compitition. LH had a far harder time beating Rosberg than Max had beating any one last year. Max didnt even break sweat. compare how Max gets out the car in 2021 to last year, most of the races last year he looked as if he hadnt even started racing yet. Redbull dominated

This is so poor. The fact that only the two Mercedes drivers could compete was NOT a sign of dominance you say, while Max fighting with Charles (not Checo) at least until the halfway mark IS a sign of dominance is twisting reality. Plus, it is super off topic.

So what races did CL compete in which Redbull had no problems / failed to finsh in? CL only won 1 race in which Max finished in, and max settled for 2nd, As he said in his interview after, and every body was hailing the " New mature world champion Max ". Max never broke sweat in 2022.

Lets not forget, Ferrari finished closer to 3rd than 1st, and as every body keeps saying, Mercs car was rubbish last year yet they nearlly stole 2nd from ferrari, Unless your saying last year was a 3 way fight for the constructors, whilst saying 3rd was crap and 2nd although nearlly beaten by " crap " was on par is an odd way at looking at the championships.

[mendis]

Lets not forget, Ferrari finished closer to 3rd than 1st, and as every body keeps saying, Mercs car was rubbish last year yet they nearlly stole 2nd from ferrari, Unless your saying last year was a 3 way fight for the constructors, whilst saying 3rd was crap and 2nd although nearlly beaten by " crap " was on par is an odd way at looking at the championships.

Don't forget, Ferrari dropped development of 2022 car after summer break when TD039 impacted them and their PU reliability issues forced them to turn the engine down. Same with Red Bull as they didn't need to bring upgrades. Mercedes kept developing the car until last race and the high altitude circuits like Mexico and Brazil favoured their draggy car to make them look better than they were. First half was indeed quite a fight, whether someone likes it or not. If it wasn't for TD039 and the engine reliability issues, the fight would have gone on until the end and I guess then Mercedes wouldn't have looked as good as they did. If Ferrari had sorted their issues, then there would be another fight this year.

[bas550]

I assume you're a Hamilton/Mercedes fan?

Yes, one team won most of the races, but it was in no way anywhere near what Merc were doing in 2014-2016.

Others only won because of Merc failures. Ferrari and Mercedes won races on pure pace in 2022.

If Charles hadn't been throwing it off the road, and Ferrari been putting their car on the wrong strategy, we would have actually seen a good battle. If Merc hadn't taken 12 races to get on top of their car, we would have seen a good battle.

2023 will be closer than 2014-2016 ever was. 2023 was about people getting cars wrong with a new concept. 2014 was about people getting cars right, and still being a second off because they didn't have a Merc engine.

Edit: Also, 2014 became an engine formula as you ignored me saying before.

Merc had their engine on the Dyno since 2008, and were pushing the rules towards an engine formula they favoured. They totally mugged off the rest of F1 with an engine that had 15% more power than the rest of the grid.

It made Williams second best for god's sake - how can you possibly compare 2022 to the engine formula failure that gifted a very good driver 80 wins, and wrongly propelled him into "great" territory?

Merc had their engine on the Dyno since 2008, and were pushing the rules towards an engine formula they favoured. They totally mugged off the rest of F1 with an engine that had 15% more power than the rest of the grid.

This is just completely ridiculous. 15% more power! Man come on!

It made Williams second best for god's sake...

You know McLaren and Force India had a Mercedes engines as well? Yet they finished 5th a 6th respectively. And also Williams wasn't 2nd best, they finished 3rd.

I realize you can be one of those fans who despise Mercedes, but common, let's just be more objective please. Let's just not pull out completely dumbfounded numbers.

IIRC FIA hadn't mandated all PUs from a supplier had to have exact same engine software for both factory and customer teams, until 2017 or 18? They had mandated hardware parity but not software. Mercedes could have controlled the customer team's PU utilisation. Besides, customer teams cannot dictate the engine fitment according to their aero needs, which factory team can, which is a big boost in how you design a car. We can go on listing the advantages. McLaren had gone bad in 2013 and they haven't recovered yet.

IIRC it was 2014 Austria where Williams looked to beat Merc but where then not allowed to use certain power settings from Mercedes...Things like that was one of the big reasons why Dennis went shopping for another engine.

Merc had a massive advantage by developing their engine as early as they did. But credit where it's due, 2014 to 2016 they matched that with aero and chassis that was head and shoulders above the rest. IIRC it was Paddy that admitted not long ago that in those years they ran the engine severely down tuned, as Toto was (rightfully) afraid that if they ran it at full power the FIA would intervene and seek to get rid of their insane advantage. Even after that, Mercedes had enough performance on hand to only be "just" ahead of the rest my managing their power.

[basti313]

but the incompetence of two teams robbed us from an excellent end like in 2021.

So.. 2014 era was all too bad Mercedes too dominant.
2022, was bad cause the other teams were incompetent and not the fault of the mighty redbull.

How come the other teams in 2014 were not classed as incompetent.
Please lets not have double standards.

It is not double standards. 2014 was based on the smart idea of the split turbo. It was one single idea that made the difference, cemented by the token system. One could also say a nice exploit of a loophole. For something like that I would never use the word incompetent for the ones that did not find this loophole.
AND it is still unclear for me why this loophole was never closed. The hybrid aera should have some findings for reality, the split turbo was never more than a F1 loophole, completely irrelevant for anything else.

2022 is completely different for me. That Merc completely forgot about the floor flexing and porpoising is simply incompetent. Newey said it clearly that this phenomena was known from other racing series and Merc was also a part of these in the past (Group C).
For me it is also incompetent that Ferrari killed the car that was really competing with the floor trick and an unreliable engine. They did not expect to be competing.

[continuum16]

Maybe I’ve lost the plot but I’m not following the train of logic that has led us from 2023 pre-season testing discussion and analysis to a debate about 2022 vs 2014, the merits of the Mercedes engine from 9 years ago, who’s a fan of whom, and the success or lack thereof of Ferrari and other teams from years gone by.

Maybe a different thread for comparing different regulations and/or whether or not the current regulations are a success?

[Sieper]

I have already reported several off topic post. To no avail. Hopefully we can just keep it on topic.

[AMG.Tzan]

Closer racing? We had one team run away with most of the wins. We have people not like the regulation changes due to this who are not Mercedes fans. We have restricted development, how is it any different from 2014.

I assume you're a Hamilton/Mercedes fan?

Yes, one team won most of the races, but it was in no way anywhere near what Merc were doing in 2014-2016.

Others only won because of Merc failures. Ferrari and Mercedes won races on pure pace in 2022.

If Charles hadn't been throwing it off the road, and Ferrari been putting their car on the wrong strategy, we would have actually seen a good battle. If Merc hadn't taken 12 races to get on top of their car, we would have seen a good battle.

2023 will be closer than 2014-2016 ever was. 2023 was about people getting cars wrong with a new concept. 2014 was about people getting cars right, and still being a second off because they didn't have a Merc engine.

Edit: Also, 2014 became an engine formula as you ignored me saying before.

Merc had their engine on the Dyno since 2008, and were pushing the rules towards an engine formula they favoured. They totally mugged off the rest of F1 with an engine that had 15% more power than the rest of the grid.

It made Williams second best for god's sake - how can you possibly compare 2022 to the engine formula failure that gifted a very good driver 80 wins, and wrongly propelled him into "great" territory?

Merc had their engine on the Dyno since 2008, and were pushing the rules towards an engine formula they favoured. They totally mugged off the rest of F1 with an engine that had 15% more power than the rest of the grid.

This is just completely ridiculous. 15% more power! Man come on!

It made Williams second best for god's sake...

You know McLaren and Force India had a Mercedes engines as well? Yet they finished 5th a 6th respectively. And also Williams wasn't 2nd best, they finished 3rd.

I realize you can be one of those fans who despise Mercedes, but common, let's just be more objective please. Let's just not pull out completely dumbfounded numbers.

No he’s totally objective!

Come on, Mercedes started dyno testing since 1994 when they first got into formula 1! They knew V6 Turbos were coming!

Apparently people forgot that at first the FIA wanted to go to I4 Turbo engines back in 2009 just so they could get VW onboard again! But it was Ferrari that vetoed any such decisions and only accepted V6 Turbo around 2010-2011 when these engines were put in place!

The only reason Mercedes were in front was a combination of two things: the split turbo risk which apparently paid off and the other manufacturers totally bottling it! Renault even today is behind…

[Soalar]

I fail to see the relevance to 2023 in all this bickering and fanboyism. I thing you lot have the wrong forum!

[Spoutnik]

F1 should became implement a BoP imo. Even with less wind tunnel time x2 (penalty + finished 1st) RB will be miles ahead. Watching F1 is like waiting for an empire to fall (Ferrari : 2000-2008, Red Bull : never really falled but had a Renault PU, Merc : 2014-2020).

[dialtone]

F1 should became implement a BoP imo. Even with less wind tunnel time x2 (penalty + finished 1st) RB will be miles ahead. Watching F1 is like waiting for an empire to fall (Ferrari : 2000-2008, Red Bull : never really falled but had a Renault PU, Merc : 2014-2020).

BoP seems a terrible system to me. It's obviously intelligently designed but it just creates something new to game rather than really level the field. WEC anyway hasn't been particularly close with Toyota and everyone else far behind.

This is Off Topic however.