Sprint format (2023)

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FW17
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Re: Sprint format (2023)

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djos wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:44 am
FW17 wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:40 am
I would prefer Saturday race with different drivers. I wouldn't mind even 12 sprints then
The costs would increase quite a lot!

Realistically you'd need an extra car for each non-WCC driver, complete with a set of PU's. Otherwise, you would ruin normal championship contenders weekends when accidents or PU failures occur.
They would be using the same car. Additional parts cost should be offset from the tv revenue

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djos
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Re: Sprint format (2023)

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FW17 wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:50 am
djos wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:44 am
FW17 wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:40 am
I would prefer Saturday race with different drivers. I wouldn't mind even 12 sprints then
The costs would increase quite a lot!

Realistically you'd need an extra car for each non-WCC driver, complete with a set of PU's. Otherwise, you would ruin normal championship contenders weekends when accidents or PU failures occur.
They would be using the same car. Additional parts cost should be offset from the tv revenue
My point was that it would be unfair to the regular WCC drivers - the chance of having their Car and/or PU destroyed before the actual Grand Prix each week, would be high.
"In downforce we trust"

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FW17
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Re: Sprint format (2023)

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It is the team's car not the driver's

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djos
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Re: Sprint format (2023)

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FW17 wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:07 am
It is the team's car not the driver's
True, but can you imagine the impact this sort of concept could have on a close race for the title? Eg Lewis vs Max 2 years ago.

Let’s not forget, that WCC points have a one to one correlation to WDC points earned. If a Max, Lewis, Charles etc cannot compete in a Grand Prix because a 2nd tier driver has wrecked his car or he gets penalised for a damaged PU being replaced. The team will not be impressed.

It’s not like they can just drag out a T car like in the good old days.
"In downforce we trust"

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Big Tea
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Re: Sprint format (2023)

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FW17 wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:22 am
Big Tea wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:18 am
FW17 wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:13 am


2 normal races is no solution at all.

If they are going to have 2 races in the weekend, the Saturday race should not feature any of the Sunday/regular drivers. Teams will have to hire 4 drivers, mechanics and engineers will have to prep car for 4 drivers and all will winge about it endlessly. But in the end it will be good for the show so they will do it.
Why? its the same number of sessions in total, just one is a race instead of just passing time.
Coz every year is not 2021, 2012, 2010, 2005, 2003
This week -Practice 1 : Qualifying : Sprint Shootout : Sprint Race : Grand Prix - 5 events
Suggested schedule Practice : Qualli :-Race 1 : Race 2. 4 events, or 5 with an extra practice/adjustment session
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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FW17
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Re: Sprint format (2023)

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djos wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:17 am
FW17 wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:07 am
It is the team's car not the driver's
True, but can you imagine the impact this sort of concept could have on a close race for the title? Eg Lewis vs Max 2 years ago.

Let’s not forget, that WCC points have a one to one correlation to WDC points earned. If a Max, Lewis, Charles etc cannot compete in a Grand Prix because a 2nd tier driver has wrecked his car or he gets penalised for a damaged PU being replaced. The team will not be impressed.

It’s not like they can just drag out a T car like in the good old days.
Sharing race car is not a new concept in racing. It is up to the team to hire the right Saturday drivers. With regards to fixing a wrecked car, I have never seen (unless by choice) a car not fixed for Sunday.

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djos
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Re: Sprint format (2023)

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FW17 wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:50 am
djos wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:17 am
FW17 wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:07 am
It is the team's car not the driver's
True, but can you imagine the impact this sort of concept could have on a close race for the title? Eg Lewis vs Max 2 years ago.

Let’s not forget, that WCC points have a one to one correlation to WDC points earned. If a Max, Lewis, Charles etc cannot compete in a Grand Prix because a 2nd tier driver has wrecked his car or he gets penalised for a damaged PU being replaced. The team will not be impressed.

It’s not like they can just drag out a T car like in the good old days.
Sharing race car is not a new concept in racing. It is up to the team to hire the right Saturday drivers. With regards to fixing a wrecked car, I have never seen (unless by choice) a car not fixed for Sunday.
I think we’ll have to agree to disagree that this is a viable option.
"In downforce we trust"

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FW17
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Re: Sprint format (2023)

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Big Tea wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:45 am
FW17 wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:22 am
Big Tea wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:18 am


Why? its the same number of sessions in total, just one is a race instead of just passing time.
Coz every year is not 2021, 2012, 2010, 2005, 2003
This week -Practice 1 : Qualifying : Sprint Shootout : Sprint Race : Grand Prix - 5 events
Suggested schedule Practice : Qualli :-Race 1 : Race 2. 4 events, or 5 with an extra practice/adjustment session
I am not debating on the number of sessions, I am saying, 2 races in a weekend is going to make F1 incredible saturated if the season does not have competition as seen in 2021, 2012, 2010, 2005, 2003.

Imagine having 2 races in a season such as 2023, good for us as Max fans (maybe) but not something everyone can enjoy.

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JordanMugen
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Re: Sprint format (2023)

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FW17 wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2023 8:40 am
I am not debating on the number of sessions, I am saying, 2 races in a weekend is going to make F1 incredible saturated if the season does not have competition as seen in 2021, 2012, 2010, 2005, 2003.

Imagine having 2 races in a season such as 2023, good for us as Max fans (maybe) but not something everyone can enjoy.
I don't like Sprint Races, but MotoGP clearly shows you can have Sprints at every round without that much of a fan or competitor revolt. Go figure!

Arguably it is far worse in MotoGP as riding is physical and the Sprints greatly increase risk of injury. :?

LHamilton
LHamilton
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Re: Sprint format (2023)

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'm not fond over sprint races, at all. It spoils the races and ruins the weekends. It's the same in F2. Making sprints reverse is not the solution. I hate it. That being said, it's better to offer a solution rather than just criticising. So thus, I've been thinking about the a little bit. It might be hard to follow through though.

So here is my thinking:

I would mantain the general format itself but make F1 two days track action rather than the three we have now (more on it further below). This would offer more days for the mechanics to rest. It could also mean, if it's ok by the teams and everyone involved, more races. Let's say we have 24 races. Out of those, if we spare one day every race weekend, we would have 24 days more for the mechanics to rest and/or have more races elsewhere. Ideally, F1 would make a +/- profit from this, meaning that they would not be opposed to this idea from the perspective of earning less money. The way you make money would just shift a bit. You might earn a bit less from every weekend, but you MIGHT have more of them.

However, the promoters might feel that they would lose money because F1 have track action on just two days instead of the three. And they might feel that they don't want to pay anyway near the amount they are doing now, to the degree where F1 might not make that +/- even money from where they are now. Well, here is the kicker; which might not be doable, make F2 shadowing F1. Whatever races F1 goes to, F2 follows suit and become almost the "appetizer" for F1. I'd make F2 have the same format as F1 (which I will talk about later in the post) and thus would have F2 be the "opener" for the "main event" (F1), similar to that of bands.

How would the schedule look like?

Friday:
F2 Practice - 2 hours
F2 Qualifying - Ideally, identical format to that of F1 qualy. The question is; Cost. Because of more compounds required.

Saturday:
F1 Practice - 2,5 hours (Either one session or split into two, being 1,5 hour and 1 hour long. Whatever works best for everbody involved)
F2 Race - Longer race than the feature race we have now in F2. But not as long as F1. Maybe ~75% of the F1 distance, or whatever the fuel capacity is with the F2 cars.
F1 Qualifying

Sunday:
F1 Race

In this way, both F2 and F1 gets two days each, with Saturday being the one day where they overlap. F2 would remove sprint race completely and have identical (or close to it) format as F1. F2 being the feeder series to F1, I think it SHOULD have the same format as F1, to make the transition easier. Because I think you approach the weekend different if you have a sprint race in there. Also, I just think a "normal" (being without a sprint) is a better format for given reasons.

Some might feel like they are being "robbed" of seeing F1 on track for one less day in this format. And sure, that is one way of seeing it. But compromises has to be made. What you could do, is that the drivers has a fan meet up of some sort during a Friday, so that the fans could meet them, sign autographs or what have you. Exactly how that would look like, I do not know. But the idea is that they get to meet their heroes on Friday, 'wet the appitite' with F2 during this day, and on a Saturday - Sunday, they got the on track experience. Again, similar to that of how some smaller (or maybe even larger(?)) bands tend to work, with one or two more openers and then you have the main band (or event in this case).

This kind of format would probably also get more eyeballs on the F2 series. And I think that a lot of people who like F1 either are somewhat invested in F2, or could be. Me for instance, like F2, but is discourage from watching it mainly due to the format. The reverse sprint makes it meh and the proper race is a little bit to short, in my opinion. So for me, I would be more invested in F2 if they would go with this kind of format (or just change the F2 format as a whole to that of F1). I think the drivers would like this format too, the F2 drivers that is. Because now, they race a lot during a few weekends and have a vast amount of time between races. I think going in sequence with F1 just makes sense, as a whole.

The only question is; COST? Are F2 teams able to follow along F1 with all the costs that it would require. Right now, F2 races at 13/14 racetracks. They would have to almost double that, to follow along F1. I'm skeptic. But I don't have the numbers.

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lucafo
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Re: Sprint format (2023)

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LHamilton wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2023 2:37 am
'm not fond over sprint races, at all. It spoils the races and ruins the weekends. It's the same in F2. Making sprints reverse is not the solution. I hate it. That being said, it's better to offer a solution rather than just criticising. So thus, I've been thinking about the a little bit. It might be hard to follow through though.

So here is my thinking:

I would mantain the general format itself but make F1 two days track action rather than the three we have now (more on it further below). This would offer more days for the mechanics to rest. It could also mean, if it's ok by the teams and everyone involved, more races. Let's say we have 24 races. Out of those, if we spare one day every race weekend, we would have 24 days more for the mechanics to rest and/or have more races elsewhere. Ideally, F1 would make a +/- profit from this, meaning that they would not be opposed to this idea from the perspective of earning less money. The way you make money would just shift a bit. You might earn a bit less from every weekend, but you MIGHT have more of them.

However, the promoters might feel that they would lose money because F1 have track action on just two days instead of the three. And they might feel that they don't want to pay anyway near the amount they are doing now, to the degree where F1 might not make that +/- even money from where they are now. Well, here is the kicker; which might not be doable, make F2 shadowing F1. Whatever races F1 goes to, F2 follows suit and become almost the "appetizer" for F1. I'd make F2 have the same format as F1 (which I will talk about later in the post) and thus would have F2 be the "opener" for the "main event" (F1), similar to that of bands.

How would the schedule look like?

Friday:
F2 Practice - 2 hours
F2 Qualifying - Ideally, identical format to that of F1 qualy. The question is; Cost. Because of more compounds required.

Saturday:
F1 Practice - 2,5 hours (Either one session or split into two, being 1,5 hour and 1 hour long. Whatever works best for everbody involved)
F2 Race - Longer race than the feature race we have now in F2. But not as long as F1. Maybe ~75% of the F1 distance, or whatever the fuel capacity is with the F2 cars.
F1 Qualifying

Sunday:
F1 Race

In this way, both F2 and F1 gets two days each, with Saturday being the one day where they overlap. F2 would remove sprint race completely and have identical (or close to it) format as F1. F2 being the feeder series to F1, I think it SHOULD have the same format as F1, to make the transition easier. Because I think you approach the weekend different if you have a sprint race in there. Also, I just think a "normal" (being without a sprint) is a better format for given reasons.

Some might feel like they are being "robbed" of seeing F1 on track for one less day in this format. And sure, that is one way of seeing it. But compromises has to be made. What you could do, is that the drivers has a fan meet up of some sort during a Friday, so that the fans could meet them, sign autographs or what have you. Exactly how that would look like, I do not know. But the idea is that they get to meet their heroes on Friday, 'wet the appitite' with F2 during this day, and on a Saturday - Sunday, they got the on track experience. Again, similar to that of how some smaller (or maybe even larger(?)) bands tend to work, with one or two more openers and then you have the main band (or event in this case).

This kind of format would probably also get more eyeballs on the F2 series. And I think that a lot of people who like F1 either are somewhat invested in F2, or could be. Me for instance, like F2, but is discourage from watching it mainly due to the format. The reverse sprint makes it meh and the proper race is a little bit to short, in my opinion. So for me, I would be more invested in F2 if they would go with this kind of format (or just change the F2 format as a whole to that of F1). I think the drivers would like this format too, the F2 drivers that is. Because now, they race a lot during a few weekends and have a vast amount of time between races. I think going in sequence with F1 just makes sense, as a whole.

The only question is; COST? Are F2 teams able to follow along F1 with all the costs that it would require. Right now, F2 races at 13/14 racetracks. They would have to almost double that, to follow along F1. I'm skeptic. But I don't have the numbers.
Great ideia!
Very nice solution!
I would just move F1 qualy to sunday morning...

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Sieper
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Re: Sprint format (2023)

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What they can do, and remain close to the current format, free practice, then parc fermé and sprint qualy on Friday. Saturday sprint race, then open parc ferme again so that you can make the changes needed after what you have learned from the sprint qualy and the shorter sprint race and then race qualy in the afternoon (parc fermé again) and the real race on Sunday.

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Stu
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Re: Sprint format (2023)

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I think that the only way to get teams really on-board with the concept AND keep things spicy for the drivers is to set the weekend up as follows:
Friday - FP1 & FP2 as per any normal weekend.
Saturday morning - Qualifying, points to top 9 qualifiers (maybe 12, 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1?), Parc Ferme triggered at end of qualifying.
Saturday afternoon - ‘Petit Prix’ (1/3rd starting in reverse qualifying order, points to top 7 finishers (12, 9, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1?).
Sunday afternoon - the Main Event, full points (as per values now), starting positions determined by the qualifying session.

Keeps the main parts of the weekend for normal TV viewers, race attendees get a decent race-card over the weekend (with room for support races), promoters also get a better deal.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

101FlyingDutchman
101FlyingDutchman
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Re: Sprint format (2023)

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Stu wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2023 2:30 pm
I think that the only way to get teams really on-board with the concept AND keep things spicy for the drivers is to set the weekend up as follows:
Friday - FP1 & FP2 as per any normal weekend.
Saturday morning - Qualifying, points to top 9 qualifiers (maybe 12, 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1?), Parc Ferme triggered at end of qualifying.
Saturday afternoon - ‘Petit Prix’ (1/3rd starting in reverse qualifying order, points to top 7 finishers (12, 9, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1?).
Sunday afternoon - the Main Event, full points (as per values now), starting positions determined by the qualifying session.

Keeps the main parts of the weekend for normal TV viewers, race attendees get a decent race-card over the weekend (with room for support races), promoters also get a better deal.
I like that a lot. Personally I think one FP session is enough. I like the fact teams don’t have an age setting the car up. Think it adds a certain level of spice and teamwork to the game. So maybe one FP but 90min as a compromise.

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Sieper
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Re: Sprint format (2023)

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I don’t like the reverse starting grid. It makes teams vulnerable to second drivers being offered up as road blocks. Or worse.