2022 budget cap violations

[Cs98]

I’d be shocked if it was red bull.

They do have form though.

To be fair though, everyone has been through the process once now so they know how it works and what to expect. So a varying penalty for the teams that breached last year, financial and procedural, shouldn’t be worse than the first time a team is found to be over. Why should there be a 1 season exemption from the cap with a lesser penalty? Doesn’t make sense in a fair application of the rules

We've seen the result of the "penalty", and it's not lost on anyone viewing this season. So as Vasseur and Brown have called for, stiffer penalties need to be introduced or the rule no longer becomes worth observing.

Yes we have seen the result of the penalty. RB have barely brought a thing in 2023 whereas teams like Merc have already brought new floors, sidepods, suspensions and wings. They've basically got a B-spec car. RB are being much more frugal with development.

[Cs98]

Did we get to know the dates of the loopholes they closed up? Sure I remember them backdating it? Was that just to the 2023 start of year?

From the start of this year. It will not have any relevance for 2022 reviews.

[Alex_Z]

I’d be shocked if it was red bull.

They do have form though.

To be fair though, everyone has been through the process once now so they know how it works and what to expect. So a varying penalty for the teams that breached last year, financial and procedural, shouldn’t be worse than the first time a team is found to be over. Why should there be a 1 season exemption from the cap with a lesser penalty? Doesn’t make sense in a fair application of the rules

We've seen the result of the "penalty", and it's not lost on anyone viewing this season. So as Vasseur and Brown have called for, stiffer penalties need to be introduced or the rule no longer becomes worth observing.

Yes we have seen the result of the penalty. RB have barely brought a thing in 2023 whereas teams like Merc have already brought new floors, sidepods, suspensions and wings. They've basically got a B-spec car. RB are being much more frugal with development.

Mercedes haven't brought a new floor.

[ValeVida46]

Yes we have seen the result of the penalty. RB have barely brought a thing in 2023 whereas teams like Merc have already brought new floors, sidepods, suspensions and wings. They've basically got a B-spec car. RB are being much more frugal with development.

Floors? Care to provide evidence for that?

Essentially any team can bring a sidepod update and it doesn't bat an eyelid. Witness AM and Macca etc.
Mercedes provide a visual change from zero to standard pod, and it must somehow be more expensive because...it goes through the same validation, design and build process?
Maybe ideas cost more for the same thing depending which team does what...

[Cs98]

Yes we have seen the result of the penalty. RB have barely brought a thing in 2023 whereas teams like Merc have already brought new floors, sidepods, suspensions and wings. They've basically got a B-spec car. RB are being much more frugal with development.

Floors? Care to provide evidence for that?

Essentially any team can bring a sidepod update and it doesn't bat an eyelid. Witness AM and Macca etc.
Mercedes provide a visual change from zero to standard pod, and it must somehow be more expensive because...it goes through the same validation, design and build process?
Maybe ideas cost more for the same thing depending which team does what...

My mistake, thought they brought a floor during the Monaco upgrade, they didn't. Just a completely revised front suspension and the new sidepods during that race, which is still a massive upgrade. Not often that teams change their suspension layout mid-season. And then the new front wing at Silverstone, and talk of a floor which didn't appear, might come later.

Contrast that to RB who have brought what? Revised sidepod inlet, a revised floor edge flap, and a new fairing on a rear suspension arm. Not exactly Christmas. Which is the point I was making re the penalty.

Merc, Macca and Ferrari are leading the way on bringing new stuff.

[Wouter]

I thought they would announced it before the summerbreak.
.

In order to speed up the examination process and better track down sinners, the department headed by CFO Federico Lodi was increased to ten employees. From the end of March, the auditors took on two teams per month, went through the books, conducted interviews, had the e-mail traffic or WhatsApp messages shown to them or sometimes turned up unannounced with unpleasant questions in the factory to see whether the annual reports submitted by the teams correspond to the facts.

The test should be completed by the end of July. Anyone who suspects that they have exceeded the limit will be visited again by the FIA ​​police in August.
All teams are to be formally informed of the results at the beginning of September.
There are already rumors in the paddock that at least two teams are the focus of the investigation that they have overstepped the mark.

[chrisc90]

Yes we have seen the result of the penalty. RB have barely brought a thing in 2023 whereas teams like Merc have already brought new floors, sidepods, suspensions and wings. They've basically got a B-spec car. RB are being much more frugal with development.

Floors? Care to provide evidence for that?

Essentially any team can bring a sidepod update and it doesn't bat an eyelid. Witness AM and Macca etc.
Mercedes provide a visual change from zero to standard pod, and it must somehow be more expensive because...it goes through the same validation, design and build process?
Maybe ideas cost more for the same thing depending which team does what...

My mistake, thought they brought a floor during the Monaco upgrade, they didn't. Just a completely revised front suspension and the new sidepods during that race, which is still a massive upgrade. Not often that teams change their suspension layout mid-season. And then the new front wing at Silverstone, and talk of a floor which didn't appear, might come later.

Contrast that to RB who have brought what? Revised sidepod inlet, a revised floor edge flap, and a new fairing on a rear suspension arm. Not exactly Christmas. Which is the point I was making re the penalty.

Merc, Macca and Ferrari are leading the way on bringing new stuff.

That’ll be 2023 upgrades. This thread should be relevant to the 2022 upgrades

[Willy]

Yes we have seen the result of the penalty. RB have barely brought a thing in 2023 whereas teams like Merc have already brought new floors, sidepods, suspensions and wings. They've basically got a B-spec car. RB are being much more frugal with development.

Floors? Care to provide evidence for that?

Essentially any team can bring a sidepod update and it doesn't bat an eyelid. Witness AM and Macca etc.
Mercedes provide a visual change from zero to standard pod, and it must somehow be more expensive because...it goes through the same validation, design and build process?
Maybe ideas cost more for the same thing depending which team does what...

My mistake, thought they brought a floor during the Monaco upgrade, they didn't. Just a completely revised front suspension and the new sidepods during that race, which is still a massive upgrade. Not often that teams change their suspension layout mid-season. And then the new front wing at Silverstone, and talk of a floor which didn't appear, might come later.

Contrast that to RB who have brought what? Revised sidepod inlet, a revised floor edge flap, and a new fairing on a rear suspension arm. Not exactly Christmas. Which is the point I was making re the penalty.

Merc, Macca and Ferrari are leading the way on bringing new stuff.

This is 2022 budget discussion. How is 2023 upgrades relevant here?

[Cs98]

Floors? Care to provide evidence for that?

Essentially any team can bring a sidepod update and it doesn't bat an eyelid. Witness AM and Macca etc.
Mercedes provide a visual change from zero to standard pod, and it must somehow be more expensive because...it goes through the same validation, design and build process?
Maybe ideas cost more for the same thing depending which team does what...

My mistake, thought they brought a floor during the Monaco upgrade, they didn't. Just a completely revised front suspension and the new sidepods during that race, which is still a massive upgrade. Not often that teams change their suspension layout mid-season. And then the new front wing at Silverstone, and talk of a floor which didn't appear, might come later.

Contrast that to RB who have brought what? Revised sidepod inlet, a revised floor edge flap, and a new fairing on a rear suspension arm. Not exactly Christmas. Which is the point I was making re the penalty.

Merc, Macca and Ferrari are leading the way on bringing new stuff.

This is 2022 budget discussion. How is 2023 upgrades relevant here?

Read the comment. I'm analysing the effect of the budget cap penalty, which is highly relevant for any potential breach in the 2022 accounting and the potential penalties that might arise from that.

[Just_a_fan]

Just a completely revised front suspension and the new sidepods during that race, which is still a massive upgrade. Not often that teams change their suspension layout mid-season.

The front suspension was just moving the attachment point of the front top wishbone arm. They didn't alter the tub to do it so it would actually be relatively cheap to implement.

[Just_a_fan]

I hope FIA has learnt lessons from 2021 cost cap saga and can enforce stringent penalty for anyone breaking cost cap regardless of minor or major breach. Dismiss from WDC and WCC standings with heavy penalties on wind tunnel time (50% reduction at a minimum) and huge fines (in excess of 50 million) and a reduction in cost cap for next year. I hope we don't hear the BS of first time offenders and hence there should be leniency.

I also hope our members are mature enough to not argue such a huge penalty if enforced on their favorite team if that is at the crosshairs, by comparing to how lenient the penalty was on Red Bull. If it is Red Bull again, I think they should be disqualified for 2 seasons.

I disagree. A team failing the cap for the first time and by a similar amount as Red Bull did, should get a similar penalty.

A team failing the cap for a second time should be DSQ (or whatever the maximum penalty allowed in the regulations is).

To DSQ a first offender this time merely reinforces the view that Red Bull were let off lightly last time.

And if Red Bull have been incompetent (or nefarious) enough to mess this up two years in a row, they deserve to be DSQ.

[Wouter]

I also hope our members are mature enough to not argue such a huge penalty if enforced on their favorite team if that is at the crosshairs, by comparing to how lenient the penalty was on Red Bull.
If it is Red Bull again, I think they should be disqualified for 2 seasons.

.
I would say disqualify them for ever!!

[Just_a_fan]

To be fair though, everyone has been through the process once now so they know how it works and what to expect. So a varying penalty for the teams that breached last year, financial and procedural, shouldn’t be worse than the first time a team is found to be over. Why should there be a 1 season exemption from the cap with a lesser penalty? Doesn’t make sense in a fair application of the rules.

Red Bull chose not to give the cost cap a "dry run" which, it seems, other teams did do. And it caught RBR out when they did it for real.

[ValeVida46]

Merc, Macca and Ferrari are leading the way on bringing new stuff.

Macca and Ferrari have new floors. As do Aston Martin. It's the biggest and most invested upgrade.

Red Bull are not restrained from producing updates by the penalty, they still run the same budget cap as others. When you have won 10 out of 10 races, you don't have the same pressure to bring updates and can push a sizable portion of the budget to 2024's car.

[chrisc90]

Whether or not RB made the mistake on purpose, or whether it was accidental, we will never know. However, that isn’t the point.

The rules have to be applied equally and fairly. Would it be fair to give say Ferrari, AMr, Mercedes less penalty for a similar breach (as redbull in 2021). If they only got a telling off and say no wind tunnel penalty, do you think Red Bull will be happy with 2 different punishments for the same breach of the rules? I think not