2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

[Wouter]

Japanese Grand Prix Post Race Show



1:24 - Tsunoda interview
11:34 - Hamilton interview
12:42 - Russell interview
16:32 - Ocon interview
20:48 - Leclerc interview
21:38 - Sainz interview
23:56 - Alonso interview
28:10 - Christian Horner interview
39:05 - Perez interview
40:36 - Zak Brown interview
42:45 - Piastri interview
47:49 - Norris interview
49:40 - Verstappen interview

[dialtone]

When did Lewis leave the track? What are you referring to? Did you see all 4 wheels off.

Lewis had all 4 tyres off the track.

https://i.ibb.co/f2GL8m2/Screenshot-fro ... -56-14.png

And precedent allows that.

Just as Russell didn't get a penalty for causing Leclerc to go off track.

Actually precedent doesn't matter because the new rule on overtaking is from 2022. We can call it the Verstappen rule because if the car being overtaken can't stay on track they aren't entitled to space. Specifically inserted to avoid what Max did in Brazil 2021.

[Mandrake]

There are so many posts here how to make overtaking better. Yet for the Hamilton / Russel incident people are making up more and more reasons why Russel round the outside was not obliged to be given space. If you say Hamilton was not in the wrong here then there will never be more overtaking in F1. You can overtake on the inside and the outside. Both cars need to stay on track and give space. Hamilton failed to do in this instance.

The joy of using different racing lines is that you will be at different speeds at different parts of the corner. In many cases the car on the outside will not be ahead at the apex but will be able to accelerate earlier at the exit offsetting that benefit. If you are ahead at the apex being on the outside you have literally already completed the overtake - at least at fast sweepers like Spoon

[ringo]

When did Lewis leave the track? What are you referring to? Did you see all 4 wheels off.

Lewis had all 4 tyres off the track.

https://i.ibb.co/f2GL8m2/Screenshot-fro ... -56-14.png

Ok i saw after replays. This is the following part of the turn after corner exit. Him driving off had little to do with his move on russel. Russel backed out around the apex.
Whats interesting is the stewards saw no need to penalize.

[TFSA]

There are so many posts here how to make overtaking better. Yet for the Hamilton / Russel incident people are making up more and more reasons why Russel round the outside was not obliged to be given space. If you say Hamilton was not in the wrong here then there will never be more overtaking in F1. You can overtake on the inside and the outside. Both cars need to stay on track and give space. Hamilton failed to do in this instance.

Nothing is being made up. That's simply not how that works.

Overtakes on the outside are always harder, that's why you need to be further along when doing an overtake on the outside. You can make the argument that Hamilton didn't stay on track, and that's a fair argument - and it's unclear exactly what stewards think about that. But fact is that if stewards don't consider that a factor in this particular instance (maybe they consider it within the realms of racing incident), then Russell simply wasn't far enough along. The guidelines are pretty clear on this here. Outside overtake, you need to be ahead from the apex - and Russell wasn't.

As for the argument that there will never be more overtaking in F1.... come on. That's a huge leap of logic right there.

[RZS10]

From the Discord (credit to RZS)

Hey that's me ...

Just wanted to add a few details, dunno if they matter but still. That image is where i estimated the apex.
I think the method is self explanatory, the line would also work for marking the corner of the FW endplates so it's about right, not perfect but it's clear that Lewis is ahead at that point.

This is a few frames earlier, the last frame from this camera angle


And the very next frame just at the beginning of the kerb


Source is the highlights video https://youtu.be/rPLxuLE62gI?t=157 with the usual reminder that [,] and [.] move the video by one frame back and forth - so it's easy to check that the gap between them only gets bigger from the last image onwards.

Ever since they introduced those guidelines they have turned such situations into a race to the apex, the inside driver will usually try to be ahead to have a claim to the corner, Hamilton probably tried to exploit it like everyone else.

It was nothing wild, he did not come back from being a car length behind, there wasn't a massive amount of excess speed, he was not massively too late, he didn't almost go straight off and he did not take both their cars an estimated 8-12 meters off track.

He probably slightly misjudged the available grip which resulted in being a tad bit more than a tyre width too wide:

And with those guidelines in place that was all he needed for this to be absolutely 100% squeaky clean, in the end it wasn't.

It's just a shame we don't have the steering input in the onboard (thanks for posting) and we don't know whether the stewards had it at their disposal but they probably did not see any sudden change of line or opening of the steering wheel to intentionally run the opponent wide from whatever data and video footage they had (any extra cameras that are not in the broadcast have to be taken from the car, correct?).

We were discussing any potential reasons why the stewards did not penalise this and most has been discussed here already so no need to repeat, i just hope they had good ones and it wasn't just down to both cars being Mercs.

One thing with regards to intra team stuff i have not seen mentioned is that any time a team is in a hearing and argues that one of their drivers should not receive a penalty and any time the stewards might let something slide they create a precedent any other team might use against them in a situation where they might ask for the competitor to be penalised. So it's a bit of a double edged sword, really.

[Sevach]

There are so many posts here how to make overtaking better. Yet for the Hamilton / Russel incident people are making up more and more reasons why Russel round the outside was not obliged to be given space. If you say Hamilton was not in the wrong here then there will never be more overtaking in F1. You can overtake on the inside and the outside. Both cars need to stay on track and give space. Hamilton failed to do in this instance.

The joy of using different racing lines is that you will be at different speeds at different parts of the corner. In many cases the car on the outside will not be ahead at the apex but will be able to accelerate earlier at the exit offsetting that benefit. If you are ahead at the apex being on the outside you have literally already completed the overtake - at least at fast sweepers like Spoon

This was a less aggressive version of Verstappen-Hamilton in Brazil 21.
Opinions pretty much the total opposite.

[CHT]

Very very dull race but what else is new. The irony is, even if something had happened to Max - and even with Perez being AWOL - it would *still* have been a dull race, as Mclaren were a clear step ahead of Ferrari and Mercedes here. Really shows how going all in on the Red Bull philosophy and architecture has been worthwhile for them and how the other ‘big teams’ reluctance/stubbornness really cost them (we know this but it was yet another clear example).

McLaren’s meteoric rise when making this shift gives more optimism for me for next year than many other say - ie that it’s over for competition until 2026 - as I think Ferrari and Mercedes have the resources to make such a step for next year (and are coming from less far back than Mclaren were) but I’m an optimist but nature! Roll in next year anyway.

From the interview and body language of the pit crew and team principals, I can see that Mclaren and Ferrari's team spirit and confidence are very high at the moment and they look like they are having lots of fun racing even when they are not winning. Merc on the other hand is operating under tremendous pressure to deliver the 8th WDC for LH and anything other than a win doesn't seem to justify a good celebration.

W15 is going to be a fundamentally new car and introducing a new design concept so late into the current technical regulation may be too little too late due to limited testing and budget cap. As seen in the past, any F1 team that suffered fundamental design flaw issues will take years to catch up because all other top teams are also working flat out in their factories. Teams like Ferrari and Mclaren are equally capable as Merc and they do have a common target to catch RBR. As for RBR themselves it is possible they may have diverted their focus on the 2024 campaign much earlier than others.

[organic]

Norris has same number of P2s as Perez this year wow

[Cs98]

George is off the track because he is being forced there. The debate here is whether it's legal or not to force him off the track. I think not since Lewis himself goes off the track and is thus not in control of his car when making his defensive move. The "from the apex" argument is a legitimate one when the defending car is in control, not when they're just bombing up the inside with no way of making the corner.

Well the stewards obviously disagree. Whether it's because they're teammates is a topic for debate, but the stewards in general wasn't f*cking around this weekend if you ask me.

The stewards disagreeing hasn't proven to be a good judge of right and wrong these past few weeks. Whether you are overtaking or defending, going off track (unless you were forced there) should never be part of it. That's gaining an advantage.

[Just_a_fan]

Norris has same number of P2s as Perez this year wow

And the most number of P17s of any driver which, coincidentally, is the same as the number of P2s. Very much a season of hot and cold so far.

[Just_a_fan]

George is off the track because he is being forced there. The debate here is whether it's legal or not to force him off the track. I think not since Lewis himself goes off the track and is thus not in control of his car when making his defensive move. The "from the apex" argument is a legitimate one when the defending car is in control, not when they're just bombing up the inside with no way of making the corner.

Well the stewards obviously disagree. Whether it's because they're teammates is a topic for debate, but the stewards in general wasn't f*cking around this weekend if you ask me.

The stewards disagreeing hasn't proven to be a good judge of right and wrong these past few weeks. Whether you are overtaking or defending, going off track (unless you were forced there) should never be part of it. That's gaining an advantage.

By definition, the stewards define right and wrong by their decisions.

We might disagree with them on a weekly basis but that's a different issue and usually caused by inconsistencies in the decisions.

[AMG.Tzan]

When did Lewis leave the track? What are you referring to? Did you see all 4 wheels off.

Lewis had all 4 tyres off the track.

https://i.ibb.co/f2GL8m2/Screenshot-fro ... -56-14.png

“This is all about let them race, let them race”

[Sieper]

You sometimes can go a bit outside the limit. Nobody really knows why, that is just what F1 has always been. I think this was the lap where Hamilton missed the exit on degner2? So maybe that played a role in Russell having a try and the stewards cutting a little slack. Hamilton post race also said that they put on a little to less frontwing for the first stint (heavy on fuel). Later his Car was also more stable. A pattern we have seen at more races.

[101FlyingDutchman]

This is the rule for outside:

In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.

When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner. The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track.

Even here is ‘among the various factors when exercising their discretion’.

If the behavior of the overtaken car isn’t safe they will penalize even if they were ahead. In my humblest opinion they would have penalized here if it wasn’t among teammates.

Edit: also note that the car being overtaken needs to stay within the track limits.

If this is the rule then Lewis overtake on RUS in Singapore was never on. I clearly saw people stating that RUS should have left room which he clearly didnt need to. Late braking into a disappearing wedge is never going to end well. Now I can also see why the stewards decided that NOR should also have his position back