2023 United States Grand Prix - COTA, Oct 20 - 22

[ValeVida46]

I think the larger issue is the logistical issue of holding all cars in parc ferme for potentially hours. I think Allison suggested that teams could dismantle the plank assembly themselves which would expedite things for the FIA.

30 minutes is not hours. According to Steiner, who's a team boss and has experience of these matters.

Steiner! a very reliable source

With the greatest respect, far more reliable than you Organic.
Not a surly comment, just that he's an F1 team boss and has been for many years, whereas you're a poster on F1technical.
The credence here is with Steiner.

[organic]

30 minutes is not hours. According to Steiner, who's a team boss and has experience of these matters.

Steiner! a very reliable source

With the greatest respect, far more reliable than you Organic.
Not a surly comment, just that he's a team boss and you're a poster on F1technical.

All cars already have to be checked for things like fuel sample etc. So it isn't just going to be 30 minutes. It's going to be 30 extra minutes (minimum) for every team every race. For an operation that is already logistically challenged when it comes to double/triple headers and employees working lots of hours, that's a lot of time for a particular rule that hasn't resulted in any change to the classification (up to this point) in over 20 years! Saying that it's obvious the FIA should change everything based on this incident is not so obvious to me

I don't disagree it should be looked at

[chrisc90]

What’s wrong with machining a 10mm hole in it and simply checking whether the holes are still evident as part of a extra measure to speed things up?

Infact it doesn’t even have to be 10mm, do it at 9mm for signs of early indication and whether needs to be checked further. Then you can add additional detailed sampling on top at random

[TFSA]

It really is a simple process that would take 30 minutes for the entire grid. Don't take my word for it, Gunther Steiner literally came out and said it today. (I've posted this already in another thread but will do so again here)
Each car is disassembled before transportation, and this can be done with 5 scrutineers in 10 teams pit garages if you want to reduce the time even further.

So that's 30 minutes for one check. One check out of plenty of checks that has to be done. I'd recommend checking out the full scrutineering report - it's easy to forget how many checks they actually do.

I don't trust Steiner on this. He's a biased source, and he's not doing the scrutineering. Also, the FIA is saying they don't have the time for it. So that's two "credible" sources stating opposite things.

But let's assume for a second you're right, and the FIA with a few extra people can do this on 15-20 min for all cars. What about the next time a car is disqualified for another check that isn't done on all cars (say, a 3D scan, and the component doesn't fit the CAD). Are we also gonna make every car go through that check every time? And the next check? And then we continue that pattern until every test that it's currently random is mandatory for all cars , and Parc Ferme is suddenly extended by a day.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this is not a sustainable road to go down. This is a pure recency bias thing, because two cars failed the test. Next time it's something else, and we'll go through the exact same discussion again about all cars should be checked for that particular test.

[Cs98]

But let's assume for a second you're right, and the FIA with a few extra people can do this on 15-20 min for all cars. What about the next time a car is disqualified for another check that isn't done on all cars (say, a 3D scan, and the component doesn't fit the CAD). Are we also gonna make every car go through that check every time? And the next check? And then we continue that pattern until every test that it's currently random is mandatory for all cars , and Parc Ferme is suddenly extended by a day.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this is not a sustainable road to go down. This is a pure recency bias thing, because two cars failed the test. Next time it's something else, and we'll go through the exact same discussion again about all cars should be checked for that particular test.

You are appealing to rationale and thinking about the consequences of these "simple" solutions, applying the same standard to all tests, that's a huge mistake. This entire mountain (mole hill) is built on foundations of pettiness and anger that one's favourite driver got disqualified. Logic has no weight here. What do you think is a more rewarding narrative for these fans? "My favourite driver got DQd for an illegal car and lost a bunch of points", or, "FIA bad". The story just writes itself. Total deflection and spin narratives to cope with thoroughly deserved disqualifications.

[Big Tea]

I think the larger issue is the logistical issue of holding all cars in parc ferme for potentially hours. I think Allison suggested that teams could dismantle the plank assembly themselves which would expedite things for the FIA.

30 minutes is not hours. According to Steiner, who's a team boss and has experience of these matters.

The only problem, and I mean only problem, is the FIA have not thought about checking all cars and therefore do not have a procedure in place to check all cars.
That's not a logistical or time problem. That's squarely an FIA problem.

The fact that 2 cars were caught means the reg is doing its job.

It's doing it's job for 4 cars on the grid.
The rest didn't need to observe the plank rule at all. Because they weren't checked.
So it's not working for the 16 other cars on the grid in terms of being policed.

It was a timely reminder to them that they CAN be called at any time, so as I said, they will not risk it for some considerable time, so it will work for all.

[dans79]

All cars already have to be checked for things like fuel sample etc.

The following types of checks are "random"

• Fuel samples
• oil sample
• aerodynamic surface validation
• plank checks

Take a look at the scrutineering document for Austin (or any other race), and you wil see that the vast majority of mandatory checks involve nothing more than connecting a computer to the mcu.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... eering.pdf

The engine high rev limit bands were checked on all cars.

The oil consumption was checked on all cars.

The plenum temperature was checked on all cars.

The IVT temperatures were checked on all cars.

The ES state of charge on-track limits were checked on all cars.

The lap energy release and recovery limits were checked on all cars.

The MGU-K power limits were checked on all cars.

The maximum MGU-K speed was checked on all cars.

The maximum MGU-K torque was checked on all cars.

The maximum MGU-H speed was checked on all cars.

The session type has been confirmed for all cars.

Chassis FIA checksum was checked on all cars taking part in the race.

The torque coordinator demands were checked on all cars.

The torque control was checked on all cars.

The rear brakes pressure control was checked on all cars.

The brake temperature warnings were checked on all cars.

The race start data of all cars have been checked.

Single clutch paddle use for the race start has been checked on all cars.

The MGU-K use at the race start was checked on all cars.

It was checked on all cars that the ES was not charged while the car was stationary in the pits

It was checked that no classified car exceeded 80 km/h when leaving the formation grid prior to the
start of the race.

It was verified on all cars that the PCU dash display configuration was not changed during Parc
Fermé.

The tyre starting pressures of all cars during the race were checked.

The tyres used by all drivers during the race today have been checked.

The fuel pressure of all cars during the race was checked.

The logged pressure within the engine cooling system during the race was checked on all cars.

Fuel flow meter calibration checksums were checked on all cars.

The instantaneous fuel mass flow of car numbers all cars was checked.

The fuel temperature of car all cars was checked.

honestly the most time consuming mandatory checks post race is weighing the cars, and checking the tires they finished on. Even that could be speed up dramatically if they had more than 1 or sets of scales (cheap scates).

When you dig into what's actually being looked at, The FIA is conflating how many checks they are doing, and how long it takes.

[organic]

He means TD039 I think

[Cs98]

So that's 30 minutes for one check.

Your entire premise revolves around a falsehood that falls short of basic math.
You are literally say 30 min x 20 cars therefore 10 hours.
It takes one car 30 mins to remove the plank assembly.
You have 2 engineering teams working in tandem to remove these bits for each team.
That remains 30 mins.
You have 10 teams doing so simultaneously.
That remains 30 mins.
It takes less than 5 minutes to measure it. Unless you are of limited physical and cognitive means.

When a grand prix runs 90 minutes, it remains 90 mins. Not 90 mins x 20 cars. 5 scrutineers could easily get the job done per team garage within 5 mins. You already have camera's inside the garage, so swapped plank assemblies would be red flagged.

If you step back and look at this from a neutral perspective, what you are arguing for is inconsistent scrutineering.
And then forwarding completely wrong math to the back that up.

You are not taking into account that the FIA need to check more than just the plank wear within a limited space of time, and naturally if they need to check the plank wear on all cars that argument extends to all other checks as well.

No need to do all that extra work and hire a bunch more scrutineers to fly all over the world when the technology is doing the job for the FIA. The cars flagged by metrics were DQd and their controls passed. The vertical oscillation sensor is pretty much made for measuring cars bottoming out, which leads to plank wear. We don't need to regress to manual checks on everyone when technology can do the job well and efficiently.

[search]

Haas has protested the race result from COTA, as they found "new" evidence for more track limit violations: the onboard cameras.

According to those, penalties of another 18x5s for Perez, 16x5s for Stroll, 15x5s for Albon, and 3x5s for Sargeant would need to be added to the result. This would move Hülkenberg up to 7th.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... erstoesse/

[chrisc90]

Arent they outside the 96 hours to protest it??

[search]

Arent they outside the 96 hours to protest it??

apparently the rules are different when new evidence pops up, which Haas believes is the case. FIA hasn't admitted it yet, though.

In a way, I guess they have a point. But somehow, those drivers like Perez also deserve praise for figuring out that the FIA failed to monitor track limits at that corner, and taking it to their advantage

[chrisc90]

Well the FIA have confirmed it. Hearing Wednesday at 2pm

[Espresso]

Haas has protested the race result from COTA, as they found "new" evidence for more track limit violations: the onboard cameras.

According to those, penalties of another 18x5s for Perez, 16x5s for Stroll, 15x5s for Albon, and 3x5s for Sargeant would need to be added to the result. This would move Hülkenberg up to 7th.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... erstoesse/

Problem/challenge is they have to check all the rounds and all the drivers to be fair in this case.
Because Steiner sure doesn´t give any insight/evidence about the rounds in which his own drivers went over the track limits.

[AR3-GP]

George Russell's offenses in Qatar may need a 2nd look.