2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Aesop]

“I think we’ve lost our way at the beginning of ’22 because all our tools and systems [previously] gave us cars that were winning championships every single year,”

I think they actually lost their way before '22, and had some element missing in their understanding without knowing it. In '21, with the cutouts in the floor, the initially lost ground to Red Bull. At the end of '21 they arguably had the fastest car again, with hardly any updates. So they seemed to have something missing in the understanding /simulation of their car and the setup already then.

*cough* ...engine... *cough*

[AMG.Tzan]

“I think we’ve lost our way at the beginning of ’22 because all our tools and systems [previously] gave us cars that were winning championships every single year,”

I think they actually lost their way before '22, and had some element missing in their understanding without knowing it. In '21, with the cutouts in the floor, the initially lost ground to Red Bull. At the end of '21 they arguably had the fastest car again, with hardly any updates. So they seemed to have something missing in the understanding /simulation of their car and the setup already then.

*cough* ...engine... *cough*

I’m laughing at people who think an engine is enough to win you an f1 championship!

Just to remind you Ferrari pretty much always had the most powerful engine throughout F1’s history since the 1950s! Yet guess what! The Ford DFV V8 is the most successful engine in the history of the sport and did so during a time when aero was non existent!

Just look at Ferrari during 1990-1995 when they were running powerful V12s! Always the most powerful yet always nowhere near Williams-Renault or Benetton-Ford…

For some reason Red Bull fans cannot accept that their cars nowhere near top aerodynamically during 2014-2021! Even in 2021 it took half the floor being cut by the FIA just to hit low rake cars (Mercedes-pink Mercedes) for them to challenge Mercedes! Otherwise it would have been 2020 all over again…

[Bill]

I think they actually lost their way before '22, and had some element missing in their understanding without knowing it. In '21, with the cutouts in the floor, the initially lost ground to Red Bull. At the end of '21 they arguably had the fastest car again, with hardly any updates. So they seemed to have something missing in the understanding /simulation of their car and the setup already then.

*cough* ...engine... *cough*

I’m laughing at people who think an engine is enough to win you an f1 championship!

Just to remind you Ferrari pretty much always had the most powerful engine throughout F1’s history since the 1950s! Yet guess what! The Ford DFV V8 is the most successful engine in the history of the sport and did so during a time when aero was non existent!

Just look at Ferrari during 1990-1995 when they were running powerful V12s! Always the most powerful yet always nowhere near Williams-Renault or Benetton-Ford…

For some reason Red Bull fans cannot accept that their cars nowhere near top aerodynamically during 2014-2021! Even in 2021 it took half the floor being cut by the FIA just to hit low rake cars (Mercedes-pink Mercedes) for them to challenge Mercedes! Otherwise it would have been 2020 all over again…

ferrari doesnt always have most powerfull engine such bullshit is easy to disprove they dont have it now ,they didnt during merc domination or during v8 era.they have been great engines from bmw honda renault cosworth merc

[Farnborough]

*cough* ...engine... *cough*

I’m laughing at people who think an engine is enough to win you an f1 championship!

Just to remind you Ferrari pretty much always had the most powerful engine throughout F1’s history since the 1950s! Yet guess what! The Ford DFV V8 is the most successful engine in the history of the sport and did so during a time when aero was non existent!

Just look at Ferrari during 1990-1995 when they were running powerful V12s! Always the most powerful yet always nowhere near Williams-Renault or Benetton-Ford…

For some reason Red Bull fans cannot accept that their cars nowhere near top aerodynamically during 2014-2021! Even in 2021 it took half the floor being cut by the FIA just to hit low rake cars (Mercedes-pink Mercedes) for them to challenge Mercedes! Otherwise it would have been 2020 all over again…

ferrari doesnt always have most powerfull engine such bullshit is easy to disprove they dont have it now ,they didnt during merc domination or during v8 era.they have been great engines from bmw honda renault cosworth merc

The reality was significant in difference to the projected "most powerful" John Barnard offering insight to the real "advantages" that many project.
Amongst the analysis is ..... heavy, long, thirsty, friction and marginal design with minimal crank bearings and, ahem flexible crank with lifing issues. Its a very different picture to the one assumed from outsiders.
Many compromise in terms of containing those "attributes" in contemporary chassis, only fully resolved as they developed the V10 ultimately.

[Chuckjr]

I think they actually lost their way before '22, and had some element missing in their understanding without knowing it. In '21, with the cutouts in the floor, the initially lost ground to Red Bull. At the end of '21 they arguably had the fastest car again, with hardly any updates. So they seemed to have something missing in the understanding /simulation of their car and the setup already then.

*cough* ...engine... *cough*

I’m laughing at people who think an engine is enough to win you an f1 championship!

Just to remind you Ferrari pretty much always had the most powerful engine throughout F1’s history since the 1950s! Yet guess what! The Ford DFV V8 is the most successful engine in the history of the sport and did so during a time when aero was non existent!

Just look at Ferrari during 1990-1995 when they were running powerful V12s! Always the most powerful yet always nowhere near Williams-Renault or Benetton-Ford…

For some reason Red Bull fans cannot accept that their cars nowhere near top aerodynamically during 2014-2021! Even in 2021 it took half the floor being cut by the FIA just to hit low rake cars (Mercedes-pink Mercedes) for them to challenge Mercedes! Otherwise it would have been 2020 all over again…

Cods wallop.
When a team has 80+ horse advantaged car, they win. The end.

[PlatinumZealot]

So much crap and falsehoods being chatted about in here.

In 2021 Mercedes fell behind RedBull because they only knew how to make downforce from low ride heights and 2021 floor technical rules were changed to hurt Mercedes knowing that fact. In other words, they hadn't the same level of mastery over under-car vortices as RedBull did. And to this day that remains true. It was nothing to do with them having a strong engine to make up for poor aerodynamics. They had great aerodynamics but unfortunately it was for a low ride height, stiff platform philosophy.

[Dunlay]

So much crap and falsehoods being chatted about in here.

In 2021 Mercedes fell behind RedBull because they only knew how to make downforce from low ride heights and 2021 floor technical rules were changed to hurt Mercedes knowing that fact. In other words, they hadn't the same level of mastery over under-car vortices as RedBull did. And to this day that remains true. It was nothing to do with them having a strong engine to make up for poor aerodynamics. They had great aerodynamics but unfortunately it was for a low ride height, stiff platform philosophy.

That's a speculation and a bit of conspiracy theory of after thought. It can be argued both ways. Considering Red Bull used to run so much rake, such a change to floor could have been detrimental to the way they seal the floor and generate downforce. Mercedes on the other hand, with their lower ride height, should have been the beneficiary. The 2022 changes to the floor edge was demanded by Mercedes, in anticipation to hurt Red Bull and Ferrari. Some people strongly argued that it would hurt Red Bull and would help Mercedes. That didn't happen. It's a matter of finding right solutions to a given problem and whichever team accomplishes it better, comes out on top. Blaming regulatory changes is a waste of time. From the outside, it clearly appears that Mercedes started getting exposed on aero since 2021, incidentally, it was also a time when Honda came on par with engine. Honda also got nerfed mid season with a technical directive. As things stand, it clearly appears that things started degrading from 2021 or may be losing the engine advantage put their aero teams on difficult challenge.

[Cocles]

That's a speculation and a bit of conspiracy theory of after thought.

Were you not watching the sport back then? It was readily accepted that it was done to slow down Merc, similar to banning party modes and FRIC suspension. Also similar to banning pit stops in 2005 to slow down Ferrari. It isn't a conspiracy at all, or even controversial; it's just how the sport works usually when a team has been dominating for awhile.

[cheeRS]

So much crap and falsehoods being chatted about in here.

In 2021 Mercedes fell behind RedBull because they only knew how to make downforce from low ride heights and 2021 floor technical rules were changed to hurt Mercedes knowing that fact. In other words, they hadn't the same level of mastery over under-car vortices as RedBull did. And to this day that remains true. It was nothing to do with them having a strong engine to make up for poor aerodynamics. They had great aerodynamics but unfortunately it was for a low ride height, stiff platform philosophy.

That's a speculation and a bit of conspiracy theory of after thought. It can be argued both ways. Considering Red Bull used to run so much rake, such a change to floor could have been detrimental to the way they seal the floor and generate downforce. Mercedes on the other hand, with their lower ride height, should have been the beneficiary. The 2022 changes to the floor edge was demanded by Mercedes, in anticipation to hurt Red Bull and Ferrari. Some people strongly argued that it would hurt Red Bull and would help Mercedes. That didn't happen. It's a matter of finding right solutions to a given problem and whichever team accomplishes it better, comes out on top. Blaming regulatory changes is a waste of time. From the outside, it clearly appears that Mercedes started getting exposed on aero since 2021, incidentally, it was also a time when Honda came on par with engine. Honda also got nerfed mid season with a technical directive. As things stand, it clearly appears that things started degrading from 2021 or may be losing the engine advantage put their aero teams on difficult challenge.

No only are you conflating the floor rules of '21 and '22, but you sort of just... spewed out pure opinion and nothing that could be objectively even supported. Just FYI, since you just called out the user you quoted for 'conspiracy' and hindsight.

Merc has lost dozens and dozens of talented personnel - many from their power unit and aero depts (https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... x0ly5uWqru) - over the last 3-4 years. Ironically, many of them went to RBR (and AMR). Further, the budget cap was a massive adjustment for the top 3-4 teams, Merc, RBR, Ferrari, and McLaren. Given that RBR 'cheated' or went over the budget cap, it's not surprising that they've bought a lead that the other top teams can't quite match, yet.

I've said this before, and we've been hearing it over and over from Wolff and James Allison: the Merc since '22 is a FAST CAR. Maybe THE fastest car in F1. The caveat is that this is only true in their simulator/data . That being the case, they really do need to just figure out the correlation problem and it would change the whole tone/narrative.

[Rodak]

I’m laughing at people who think an engine is enough to win you an f1 championship!

Well, an engine sure can lose it. Ask Alpine.

[JordanMugen]

They had great aerodynamics but unfortunately it was for a low ride height, stiff platform philosophy.

Shouldn't that be ideal for the 2022 regulations then?

I wonder why Mercedes lost confidence in the race-winning low and stiff W13 concept when (with pole, sprint win, race win) it was actually the best of the W13, W14 and W15 so far?

(Unless the W15 gains a lot of performance with in-season development, which is possible.)

[JordanMugen]

Were you not watching the sport back then? It was readily accepted that it was done to slow down Merc

Nonsense. Can you find a consensus from 2020 saying that it is readily accepted that the floor cuts will target low rake cars?!

I was following the sport and did not hear that anywhere. If anything, the majority of pundits thought the cuts would disproportionately affect the high rake cars (so everyone apart from Mercedes and Racing Point).

Given Red Bull's high rake arrangement, the initial thought was that it could come off worse because of the new floors. However, others argue that Mercedes could actually be the ones hurt the most from the arrangement.

If you look at it objectively it seems that both short wheelbase/high rake and long wheelbase/low rake philosophies are going to take a hit then.

But, how much will depend on the reliance each has on the aerodynamic functionality of the outgoing fully enclosed holes on their floor and diffuser, when compared with the losses they'll initially accrue from the trimming down of the floor, brake ducts and diffuser. ... Right now there is not a clear answer as to who comes off worse, but there seems no doubt it is going to have an impact.

https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/why-f ... r/4939381/


Even in 2020, even Mercedes and Racing Point themselves did not express concerns that the floor cuts would disproportionately affect them, unless I'm mistaken?

Allison's does not mention any concern that the high-rake cars have been advantaged. Why would he omit
that from his comments if it is a pertinent political topic for Mercedes before the 2021 season starts?

First and foremost, there has been a triangular cut-out to the edges of the floor in front of the rear wheels
which when you see it, you’ll think, ‘that doesn’t look that big’. ... It’s been our challenge over the weeks and months since those rules were set in stone to try to recover as much of the performance as possible.That has been quite an entertaining ride in the windtunnel and in CFD to try and make sure that we get that performance as far as possible back onto the car.

- James Allison
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/the- ... ense-task/

It's all very well to mention it after the 2021 season starts and there is comparative data, but the time to identify and mention the concern and play politics is in 2020, no?!

[Cs98]

That's a speculation and a bit of conspiracy theory of after thought.

Were you not watching the sport back then? It was readily accepted that it was done to slow down Merc, similar to banning party modes and FRIC suspension. Also similar to banning pit stops in 2005 to slow down Ferrari. It isn't a conspiracy at all, or even controversial; it's just how the sport works usually when a team has been dominating for awhile.

As I recall, until we got to testing that year there was little to no talk of a targeted rule change, in fact a lot of the speculation centered around the high rake cars suffering from the change. Then we got to see the Merc and Aston in action and all of a sudden the narrative was born with the help of a few comments in the media, all after the fact with results in hand. Not exactly the sign of a pre-meditated hitjob.

[Dunlay]

That's a speculation and a bit of conspiracy theory of after thought.

Were you not watching the sport back then? It was readily accepted that it was done to slow down Merc, similar to banning party modes and FRIC suspension. Also similar to banning pit stops in 2005 to slow down Ferrari. It isn't a conspiracy at all, or even controversial; it's just how the sport works usually when a team has been dominating for awhile.

Before making conjectures, it's important to have a complete understanding of the events. Pirelli had done with producing 2020 tyres and started preparing for 2021 season (ground effect rules) when Covid hit. FIA then postponed the regulatory changes to 2022. But Pirelli was afraid that the 2020 tyres would be unable to handle increasing down force levels for another year. So they asked FIA to make some changes. In an effort to reduce the loads on tyres, the easiest way for FIA was to just cut a bit of floor as any other changes could be difficult for teams to implement with such a short notice. NO TEAM made any noise about the changes hurting them at any part of 2020. That is why it's a pure conspiracy borne as an afterthought that the regulations were made to hurt Mercedes. This topic has been discussed to death across various Internet forums. Just like 2022, Mercedes got it wrong in 2021 too. That's why I think the degradation in the aero understanding started in late 2020 itself.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alar ... s/5198478/

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/why- ... r/4939379/

[DDopey]

Consensus was High rake cars would be most impacted by the 2021 regulations. Only after Merc. failed keeping their advantage they started complaining about it.

It was actually Brawn who disliked the high rake as he admitted talking about the 2022 regulations. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/braw ... 1/8248533/ .

But for 2021 it was also an attempt to hurt high rake.

See this discussion https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... t/fyi1zeq/