2024 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, Feb 29 - Mar 02

[f1isgood]

And this was no different - in fact worse - without the budget cap, which is what the discussion began with if you wish to check my initial reply

That's really not entirely true. The 2014-2020 Merc dominance was already going on engine freeze period. The last period of consistent winning from a team without cost caps was really the Vettel RB era, and that was a LOT closer racing than we saw since the 2014+ engine freeze rules and now this new budget cap era. Early 2000s Ferrari was also much closer racing after a couple of years, like 2003. After 2004 dominance they killed Ferrari for 2005.

What we are seeing the last 10 years is not really the same as the old way.

Not really!

2014-2016 the championship goes down to the last race of the season 2 times and ends just 3 races from the end in 2015!

2017-2018 Ferrari shows up with a faster car yet Hamilton bleaches them!

2019-2020 were dominant seasons by Mercedes yet we got a ton of Mercedes vs Ferrari battles all through 2019 and some Red Bull battles at the end!
2020 ended up like that because of COVID but it was half a season with multiple new exciting circuits like Mugello and some new winners (Gasly, Perez)

2021 we got the greatest duel ever

So I wouldn’t say 2014-2021 were boring! 2011 and 2013 were far more boring…

I thought there was a specific thread for bickering.

[Apexseal157]

If it continues like this I'd be tempted by the evil that is succsess ballast. DRS already makes it artifical so at this point i just want to see close, unpredictable racing again

That’s my concern. This sort of dominance will lead to BoP.

Maybe there’s more that can be done around restricting development resources. The budget cap doesn’t really seem to be working.

Exactly correct, at this point it's becoming very hard to justify watching F1 when the product that WEC has on offer is just as good if not better in many ways. F1 just isn't right at the moment and what worries me most is that nobody within the sport really is willing to accept that its fundamentally broken because it's such a cash cow. If bad racing continues the bubble will burst and you could see a total loss of momentum going forward.

[chrisc90]

That's really not entirely true. The 2014-2020 Merc dominance was already going on engine freeze period. The last period of consistent winning from a team without cost caps was really the Vettel RB era, and that was a LOT closer racing than we saw since the 2014+ engine freeze rules and now this new budget cap era. Early 2000s Ferrari was also much closer racing after a couple of years, like 2003. After 2004 dominance they killed Ferrari for 2005.

What we are seeing the last 10 years is not really the same as the old way.

Not really!

2014-2016 the championship goes down to the last race of the season 2 times and ends just 3 races from the end in 2015!

2017-2018 Ferrari shows up with a faster car yet Hamilton bleaches them!

2019-2020 were dominant seasons by Mercedes yet we got a ton of Mercedes vs Ferrari battles all through 2019 and some Red Bull battles at the end!
2020 ended up like that because of COVID but it was half a season with multiple new exciting circuits like Mugello and some new winners (Gasly, Perez)

2021 we got the greatest duel ever

So I wouldn’t say 2014-2021 were boring! 2011 and 2013 were far more boring…

I thought there was a specific thread for bickering.

There was. But the 'powers that be' locked it because it was the end of testing, so now people just rant in the team or race threads. Probably time to re-visit that mods decision if they want better quality race/team threads as gives people a more suited off topic place to vent emotion, rant, and bicker without posts getting deleted.

[Apexseal157]

I thought the race was good. 2025 cars are going to be 0.1s on convergence.

They should just freeze the aero then, and just switch the engine regs to v10 synth fuels for 2026..

the aero and size of the cars is the main problem with the actual racing in my opinion. v10s will probably never come back, but you'd hope with synth fuels they could dump the hybrid as it's function would be redundant.

[Tvetovnato]

The current reduction in development time for the winners is already a start of BoP, so it will be easy to continue from here.

[organic]

8th win in a row for max... That 10 race streak is looking vulnerable

[dialtone]

And this was no different - in fact worse - without the budget cap, which is what the discussion began with if you wish to check my initial reply

That's really not entirely true. The 2014-2020 Merc dominance was already going on engine freeze period. The last period of consistent winning from a team without cost caps was really the Vettel RB era, and that was a LOT closer racing than we saw since the 2014+ engine freeze rules and now this new budget cap era. Early 2000s Ferrari was also much closer racing after a couple of years, like 2003. After 2004 dominance they killed Ferrari for 2005.

What we are seeing the last 10 years is not really the same as the old way.

Not really!

2014-2016 the championship goes down to the last race of the season 2 times and ends just 3 races from the end in 2015!

2017-2018 Ferrari shows up with a faster car yet Hamilton bleaches them!

2019-2020 were dominant seasons by Mercedes yet we got a ton of Mercedes vs Ferrari battles all through 2019 and some Red Bull battles at the end!
2020 ended up like that because of COVID but it was half a season with multiple new exciting circuits like Mugello and some new winners (Gasly, Perez)

2021 we got the greatest duel ever

So I wouldn’t say 2014-2021 were boring! 2011 and 2013 were far more boring…

It is OT here... So this is my last message on this:

2014-16 nobody but mercedes fans care that it came down to last race.
2017-18 nope, Ferrari was slower, the worse engine didn't allow to capitalize on a good car, and these were also the first years where the engine freeze was removed (so kinda proving my point). the way ham passed vettel in spa in 2017 still haunts me.

after 6 years on the formula we're finally getting some competition in 2019-20 and after removing engine freeze 3 years earlier and finally having Honda catch up and allowing at least RBR to properly race.

No one in good faith can argue that budget caps or freezes at the START of a formula help competition. Whoever nails the formula has won the era.

[vorticism]

And this was no different - in fact worse - without the budget cap, which is what the discussion began with if you wish to check my initial reply

That's really not entirely true. The 2014-2020 Merc dominance was already going on engine freeze period. The last period of consistent winning from a team without cost caps was really the Vettel RB era, and that was a LOT closer racing than we saw since the 2014+ engine freeze rules and now this new budget cap era. Early 2000s Ferrari was also much closer racing after a couple of years, like 2003. After 2004 dominance they killed Ferrari for 2005.

What we are seeing the last 10 years is not really the same as the old way.

Not really!

2014-2016 the championship goes down to the last race of the season 2 times and ends just 3 races from the end in 2015!

2017-2018 Ferrari shows up with a faster car yet Hamilton bleaches them!

2019-2020 were dominant seasons by Mercedes yet we got a ton of Mercedes vs Ferrari battles all through 2019 and some Red Bull battles at the end!
2020 ended up like that because of COVID but it was half a season with multiple new exciting circuits like Mugello and some new winners (Gasly, Perez)

2021 we got the greatest duel ever

So I wouldn’t say 2014-2021 were boring! 2011 and 2013 were far more boring…

It's illustrative that even with the Brixworth Beast and Party Mode, oil burning, etc., they couldn't achieve RB tier dominance. Just underlines that they never had the chassis/aero side as well sorted, which is what has, predictably, been shown 2022 onward and pre-2014.

[Cs98]

I don't think RB has that much downforce advantage, and no power advantage to speak of, that's why you get these quali sessions as they are. It's just they have a perfect race set-up and tyre life down to a science.

[AMG.Tzan]

If it continues like this I'd be tempted by the evil that is succsess ballast. DRS already makes it artifical so at this point i just want to see close, unpredictable racing again

That’s my concern. This sort of dominance will lead to BoP.

Maybe there’s more that can be done around restricting development resources. The budget cap doesn’t really seem to be working.

Exactly correct, at this point it's becoming very hard to justify watching F1 when the product that WEC has on offer is just as good if not better in many ways. F1 just isn't right at the moment and what worries me most is that nobody within the sport really is willing to accept that its fundamentally broken because it's such a cash cow. If bad racing continues the bubble will burst and you could see a total loss of momentum going forward.

I’ve already said it many times during testing!

BoP is the way to go if we’re going to have budget caps and sliding scale development! There’s no point in having these rules in place if the leading team is still 1 second ahead after 3 years of development with the same rules!

Before and after the race I turned to WEC and they’re having proper car manufacturers racing each other as if it’s GT3! This is what we want! This is what the whole of the 2022 f1 rules were supposed to give us!

[Apexseal157]

That’s my concern. This sort of dominance will lead to BoP.

Maybe there’s more that can be done around restricting development resources. The budget cap doesn’t really seem to be working.

Exactly correct, at this point it's becoming very hard to justify watching F1 when the product that WEC has on offer is just as good if not better in many ways. F1 just isn't right at the moment and what worries me most is that nobody within the sport really is willing to accept that its fundamentally broken because it's such a cash cow. If bad racing continues the bubble will burst and you could see a total loss of momentum going forward.

I’ve already said it many times during testing!

BoP is the way to go if we’re going to have budget caps and sliding scale development! There’s no point in having these rules in place if the leading team is still 1 second ahead after 3 years of development with the same rules!

Before and after the race I turned to WEC and they’re having proper car manufacturers racing each other as if it’s GT3! This is what we want! This is what the whole of the 2022 f1 rules were supposed to give us!

yes me too, honestly the f1 race just became something to switch to when the ads came on. the current battle is magnificent compared to the f1 race

[f1isgood]

Not really!

2014-2016 the championship goes down to the last race of the season 2 times and ends just 3 races from the end in 2015!

2017-2018 Ferrari shows up with a faster car yet Hamilton bleaches them!

2019-2020 were dominant seasons by Mercedes yet we got a ton of Mercedes vs Ferrari battles all through 2019 and some Red Bull battles at the end!
2020 ended up like that because of COVID but it was half a season with multiple new exciting circuits like Mugello and some new winners (Gasly, Perez)

2021 we got the greatest duel ever

So I wouldn’t say 2014-2021 were boring! 2011 and 2013 were far more boring…

I thought there was a specific thread for bickering.

There was. But the 'powers that be' locked it because it was the end of testing, so now people just rant in the team or race threads. Probably time to re-visit that mods decision if they want better quality race/team threads as gives people a more suited off topic place to vent emotion, rant, and bicker without posts getting deleted.

Yeah, that would be more appropriate for people to vent their frustrations. Agreed.

[Cs98]

That's really not entirely true. The 2014-2020 Merc dominance was already going on engine freeze period. The last period of consistent winning from a team without cost caps was really the Vettel RB era, and that was a LOT closer racing than we saw since the 2014+ engine freeze rules and now this new budget cap era. Early 2000s Ferrari was also much closer racing after a couple of years, like 2003. After 2004 dominance they killed Ferrari for 2005.

What we are seeing the last 10 years is not really the same as the old way.

Not really!

2014-2016 the championship goes down to the last race of the season 2 times and ends just 3 races from the end in 2015!

2017-2018 Ferrari shows up with a faster car yet Hamilton bleaches them!

2019-2020 were dominant seasons by Mercedes yet we got a ton of Mercedes vs Ferrari battles all through 2019 and some Red Bull battles at the end!
2020 ended up like that because of COVID but it was half a season with multiple new exciting circuits like Mugello and some new winners (Gasly, Perez)

2021 we got the greatest duel ever

So I wouldn’t say 2014-2021 were boring! 2011 and 2013 were far more boring…

It is OT here... So this is my last message on this:

2014-16 nobody but mercedes fans care that it came down to last race.
2017-18 nope, Ferrari was slower, the worse engine didn't allow to capitalize on a good car, and these were also the first years where the engine freeze was removed (so kinda proving my point). the way ham passed vettel in spa in 2017 still haunts me.

after 6 years on the formula we're finally getting some competition in 2019-20 and after removing engine freeze 3 years earlier and finally having Honda catch up and allowing at least RBR to properly race.

No one in good faith can argue that budget caps or freezes at the START of a formula help competition. Whoever nails the formula has won the era.

Interesting theory but we can all recall how this era started, that is with Ferrari just as fast if not faster than RB. In other words, RB gained this advantage through superior development during the CC era. Others can gain it back the same way.

[AMG.Tzan]

That's really not entirely true. The 2014-2020 Merc dominance was already going on engine freeze period. The last period of consistent winning from a team without cost caps was really the Vettel RB era, and that was a LOT closer racing than we saw since the 2014+ engine freeze rules and now this new budget cap era. Early 2000s Ferrari was also much closer racing after a couple of years, like 2003. After 2004 dominance they killed Ferrari for 2005.

What we are seeing the last 10 years is not really the same as the old way.

Not really!

2014-2016 the championship goes down to the last race of the season 2 times and ends just 3 races from the end in 2015!

2017-2018 Ferrari shows up with a faster car yet Hamilton bleaches them!

2019-2020 were dominant seasons by Mercedes yet we got a ton of Mercedes vs Ferrari battles all through 2019 and some Red Bull battles at the end!
2020 ended up like that because of COVID but it was half a season with multiple new exciting circuits like Mugello and some new winners (Gasly, Perez)

2021 we got the greatest duel ever

So I wouldn’t say 2014-2021 were boring! 2011 and 2013 were far more boring…

It's illustrative that even with the Brixworth Beast and Party Mode, oil burning, etc., they couldn't achieve RB tier dominance. Just underlines that they never had the chassis/aero side as well sorted, which is what has, predictably, been shown 2022 onward and pre-2014.

Classic Red Bull’s fan opinion on 2014-2020! It reminds me of the McLaren boys who were always saying they had the best chassis but it was Honda keeping them back! Yet during 2021 both these teams got their answers:
-The FIA goes ahead and cuts the floor so that Mercedes loses performance!
-Honda at last brings an engine on par (and even stronger at times) than Mercedes
-McLaren gets a Mercedes engine

Guess who won the Constructors championship again!

It’s difficult for your mind to comprehend that Newey couldn’t get hold of these 2014-2021 rules! You just have to check at what Mercedes was bringing at the start of every season versus the basic cars Red Bull and McLaren brought every year back then! Even Ferrari bleached you all along…

[Jambier]

If I am correct this is the exact order we had end of 2023

Red Bull
Ferrari and Mercedes quite close
McLaren
Aston

Nothing changes. Can we go to 2026 please?