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Global Warming

Unavoidable
16
30%
Imminant
8
15%
Exagerated
11
21%
Unlikely
0
No votes
We can stop it, work fast
12
23%
BS, no truth in it at all
6
11%
 
Total votes: 53

G-Rock
G-Rock
0
Joined: 27 Jul 2006, 20:05
Location: Ridgetown, ON

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hydrogen - not verry energy dense hard to store expensive to make (it takes water boat loads of electricty) so you are buring alot of coal also we are making it form methane right now dumping all of the other parts of methane into the atmosphere
I think hydrogen has the most potential, long term. If they can figure out how to store it cheaply and compactly, then countries can start their own hydrogen economies through wind energy for instance. The problem with wind energy is that it isn't consistant so it can never totally supply the conventional power grid BUT if the energy they produce can be stored in the form of hydrogen then the possibilities would be endless. Localized electricity production systems, hydrogen cells, the sky is the limit.
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flynfrog
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

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G-Rock wrote:
hydrogen - not verry energy dense hard to store expensive to make (it takes water boat loads of electricty) so you are buring alot of coal also we are making it form methane right now dumping all of the other parts of methane into the atmosphere
I think hydrogen has the most potential, long term. If they can figure out how to store it cheaply and compactly, then countries can start their own hydrogen economies through wind energy for instance. The problem with wind energy is that it isn't consistant so it can never totally supply the conventional power grid BUT if the energy they produce can be stored in the form of hydrogen then the possibilities would be endless. Localized electricity production systems, hydrogen cells, the sky is the limit.
the hydorgen storage problem is one of physics and chemestry there is simply not much energy in hydrogen

spliting h20 to make it is even worse not to mention fuel cells will not work unless fed higly compressed hydrogen gas.

so if it takes say 1 btu to split enough hydrogen to get .25 btus then on top of that we have to compress it. then the vehicle has to carry around a very heavy tank to hold the hydrogen.




IMO hydrogen is used to get polititions reelected not a viable energy alternative.


If you want a long term solition look to soy fuels and coal

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Tom
0
Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

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flynfrog said:
Before every one goes off on a alternative energy binge look at a few facts

Solar - takes more energy to make the cells than they will give out in there life time not to mention they are horibly bad to dispose of
Very good point, but I'd like to know the input/output energy for other producers, surely petrol uses far more energy getting it to us than it produces?

This is getting very interesting, but I don't believe cars are as big a cause as is suggested, sure they make up a percentage but what about emissions from power plants and other corporations?

I mainly started this to see what the international opinion is on this, as I've heard alot about America in particular, but I didn't think it was a good example of the average US citizen, and sure enough it's not.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

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flynfrog
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

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Tom wrote:flynfrog said:
Before every one goes off on a alternative energy binge look at a few facts

Solar - takes more energy to make the cells than they will give out in there life time not to mention they are horibly bad to dispose of
Very good point, but I'd like to know the input/output energy for other producers, surely petrol uses far more energy getting it to us than it produces?

This is getting very interesting, but I don't believe cars are as big a cause as is suggested, sure they make up a percentage but what about emissions from power plants and other corporations?

I mainly started this to see what the international opinion is on this, as I've heard alot about America in particular, but I didn't think it was a good example of the average US citizen, and sure enough it's not.
energy for oil is pretty desnse and it can be piped this keeps transport cost low



ethanol and hydrogen can not be piped

also hydrogen has to be clean or else it will quickly destroy the metal hydride straoge methods and fuel cells

we could use it in IC engine but it still has a storage problem

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

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It's pointless to talk about global warming if continuing the use of petroleum-based fuels remains part of the conversation. No matter how efficiently one uses the stuff, it's still going to contribute to the buildup of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Not to mention the fact that petroleum won't last forever; sooner or later, with or without global warming, we're going to have to find a replacement.

I don't think nuclear energy in any form is the answer. All one needs to do is look at the landscape around Chernobyl to see why. I just don't think even one more of those incidents, no matter how remote the chances, is worth it.

But whether we go with solar power, wind power, hydrogen, or anything else presently known or unknown, any new solution people come up with is going to be more expensive than the fuels we use now. We're just going to have to live with that if we're serious about affecting climate change.

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Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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flynfrog wrote: This is getting very interesting, but I don't believe cars are as big a cause as is suggested, sure they make up a percentage but what about emissions from power plants and other corporations?
...
ethanol and hydrogen can not be piped
...
In USA, cars use 2/3 of all the fuel. In Europe, around 1/3.

Here you have a map with the contribution of the countries to CO2 emissions, just in case you feel like walking or taking the bus or metro today.

Image

The same map with area proportional to population:

Image

Ethanol made from sugarcane reduce CO2 emissions by 80%. This is our best bet right now, if it weren't for the land requirements (and the ethical problem of devoting agricultural land to cars). Compared to this, the measures to change the "energy basket" have had limited success: check the figures for Europe 15 countries (the use is at 4 tonnes per person):

Image

My country (Colombia, in case you don't know... :)) uses a lot of hydropower. It helps to live in the Equator and in a montainous country. Check the world map of emissions even if it is unfair: it should compare emissions per capita, where EU, China and US will fare worse. Besides, most CO2 emissions in third world countries come from burn-farming, because of lack of machinery. I won't go into GATT and subsidies to european and american farms, but you know the story already.

Wind power is ugly and uses a lot of land (not in nice places most of the time, but...).

Electricity is produced using coal, specially the one produced for night-charging hybrid vehicles.

Over 80% of the hydrogen of the world is made by reducing hydrocarbons (oil) which contaminates much more than petrol cars.

I suppose hydrogen must be hard to pipe, but perhaps it can be done if you move the gas (hard to contain, but not impossible). Anyway, hydrogen is just a cosmetic idea until we develop new ways to produce it.

Anyway, Brazil is doing the feasibility study to build an ethanol pipeline from Goia to Sao Paulo.
Ciro

zac510
zac510
22
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

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Surprised it too so long for you to contribute, Ciro :). Interesting maps there - I'm surprised the UK is rated so 'highly', given good public transport systems, application of nuclear power supplies (clean in the sense of carbon emissions), so forth. I guess it loses in the amount of disposable income people have and their enthusiasm to waste it on trips to Spanish island resorts. A bit like Japan, I guess.

South America, full points for them for bio-fuel and hydro-electric fuel usage! :)

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Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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Sorry for the delay, Zac... :)

Well, most of the cars of the world are in EU, Japan and USA. There is no merit in being poor (nor rich...) :). Colombians, if they were given the money British subjects have, would do the same, except we won't go to spanish but caribbean beaches, I imagine.

I did not put those maps here to make a comment on people's nationalities, but to answer a question by flynfrog about how important are cars to global warming. The problem is going to get worse when third-world countries reach an economic level that allows a majority of people to have cars, one or two generations in the future.

What I wonder is which are the consequences of global warming. Links anybody?
Ciro

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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I don't get colors. Just compare eastern edges of Siberia with western edges of Alaska. It just can't be like that... pollution doesn't stops at international borders.

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flynfrog
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

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Tom wrote:flynfrog said:
Before every one goes off on a alternative energy binge look at a few facts

Solar - takes more energy to make the cells than they will give out in there life time not to mention they are horibly bad to dispose of
Very good point, but I'd like to know the input/output energy for other producers, surely petrol uses far more energy getting it to us than it produces?

This is getting very interesting, but I don't believe cars are as big a cause as is suggested, sure they make up a percentage but what about emissions from power plants and other corporations?

I mainly started this to see what the international opinion is on this, as I've heard alot about America in particular, but I didn't think it was a good example of the average US citizen, and sure enough it's not.

i think it is being exagerated remember scare tatics get people elected and while i do think we need to get off our oil binge there is realy not alot of good stutanible alternatives out there.




Ciro at least your country does ethanol correctly from sugar cane

here we are trying to cook down corn *shakes head*

the studies ive read on piping ethanol is the problems with it absorbing water gasoline will flow over the water where as ethanol will absorb it. I have a prety good study around here some where ill try to find


any way i can go all day about Alternative enrgies

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Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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manchild wrote:I don't get colors. Just compare eastern edges of Siberia with western edges of Alaska. It just can't be like that... pollution doesn't stops at international borders.
Of course it doesn't! But energy policies do. :lol: The area of each country is proportional to the CO2 emissions (or population in the second map), that's all. Alaska is "inflated" because is part of USA.

flynfrog, you are right about ethanol adsorbing water. This is a problem in poliducts, but not so great in dedicated "etha-ducts" (look Ma! I invented a new word!).

Actually, this is a problem the first time you put gasoline with ethanol in your car: you better clean the fuel tank first or all the water and dirt in it (not to mention all the gum deposits in the piping) will end in your cylinders.

Hoping not to kill this thread, I take the opportunity :roll: to give a long complement to MC doubts about CO2 emissions in Siberia (!), I can add that it depends on many factors, for example:

Climate
Level of industrial development
Energy taxes
How electricity is generated

Many people are aware that the USA is the world's largest producer of CO2. This is, in part, because it has the highest income in the world, total and per capita. It also has a extreme continental climate. Gasoline is very cheap (for EU standards!), and many American cities are widely spread out.

There is a clear relationship between city density and transportation energy per capita (ehem... did I mention my new book, in spanish, written with my father, right now in the printing press: "Urbanism and construction manual"? Buy it before it is totally sold! :oops:). The classic data (1989 info) is this, to fully answer flynfrog innocent question:

Image
For example, Canada has a much lower CO2 output per capita than USA, being colder. However, they have lower summer temperatures, generate more hydroelectricity, pay higher taxes on petrol and have high insulation standards on new buildings. See? You can do something.

After the USA, you have Australia and Norway as the worst per capita polluters. Australia is particularly hot, much of its electricity comes from cheap opencast coal. Norway is contrastingly cold, but also once had an extensive coal industry.

Finally, as food for thought, I post another figure I made (that I extrapolated from UN Population Office data on world population growth up to 2003) about world population reaching a maximum in 2075 and declining afterwards. We should start doing some numbers about how are we going to shelter, feed, clothe and transport 10 billion people, no more. This is another ray of hope for me, even if I have to wait until I am 116 years old :):

Image
Anyway, most of the population growth will come from thirld world countries. Here you have the probable centers of pollution in 2015 (taken from my book also, adapted from a BBC article):

Cities with more than 5.000.000 persons in 1955:
Image
Cities with more than 5.000.000 persons in 2015:
Image
I strongly believe that this means doing something about transportation in the thirld world cities, where most of the people of the world lives, not only about USA. It is there, in the poor cities, where the new policies about transit and urban development can have some (or perhaps, severe) impact. Don't worry, not everybody is expecting Mr. Bush to develop the policies for us (some of us are praying for him not to! :wink:), nor blaming him for the future african droughts. Besides, it is a problem much more interesting than developing a 25.000 rpm engine... for me.

Think globally, act locally.

Oh, and motivate your posts! :)
Ciro

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wazojugs
1
Joined: 31 Mar 2006, 18:53
Location: UK

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Sorry but the way forward is nuclear energy. solar, wave and wind energy are fine but they are not strong enough to light up a small country like the UK, but they can supplement to the main grid.

As for nuclear everyone thing straight away of chernobyl, but are people aware of the amount of nuclear stations that are in France and the USA which tick by quite well as the technology has advanced quite alot.

Biggest waste of energy is shops/ shopping centres be keep alight at night and --- products that are manufactured as gimmicks when they could of been used for something more useful. Oh and food packaging is far too much when it could be simpler

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tomislavp4
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 17:07
Location: Sweden & The Republic of Macedonia

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I´m afraid I can´t agree [-X . Nuclear energy is far too risky! Think if another "chernobyl" happens :-k

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wazojugs
1
Joined: 31 Mar 2006, 18:53
Location: UK

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tomislavp4 wrote:I´m afraid I can´t agree [-X . Nuclear energy is far too risky! Think if another "chernobyl" happens :-k
Sweden has 10 nuclear power reactors providing half of its electricity.
France has 58 nuclear power stations
Last edited by wazojugs on 01 Nov 2006, 23:56, edited 2 times in total.

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wazojugs
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006, 18:53
Location: UK

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Also more de-salination plants have to be built to help with water for sanitation, drinking and cooling.