Another reason to suggest Max Mosely should quit?

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Should Max Mosely retire

Yes, he should have gone years ago
26
84%
No, he maybe crazy but does a good job
5
16%
 
Total votes: 31

zac510
zac510
22
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

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manchild wrote: Can you prove it? I can't prove mine suspicions and that's why they are just my opinion but you sound as if you're reading the verdict that must be accepted as official. Can you prove that deep down inside he isn't hard-core racist? No? Than why shutting me up? I'm not shutting you up.
manchild you can't prove your claim any more than he can claim his, so you have no right to demand it of aerogt3.
If you were open to interpreting Mosley's comment without prejudice perhaps you might understand AeroGT3's comment?

Overall it's clear that your claim of racism against Mosley is just a desperate attempt to devalue him after all the other avenues have failed. It's petty and as Russ put it, scraping the bottom of the barrel.

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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Ok boys and girls. Let's end this once and for all.

Mosley is a racist and a fascist and he hates Hamilton and I got the proof!

Please read carefully and count racism related mentioning of MM.
Wikipedia wrote:Mosley was an election agent for his father's post-war party, the Union Movement, which used racial scaremongering in making immigration its core issue.

Former neo-nazi Trevor Grundy described in his memoirs how he and Max Mosley helped the latter's father to stir up racial tension in the run-up to and during the 1959 General Election campaign, when Mosley sr. stood in Notting Hill. Grundy alleged that Max Mosley, with his brother Alex, canvassed among local Teddy Boys, posed for the Daily Mirror as upper-class "Teds" and organised fascist skiffle gigs. Grundy also wrote that he and Max Mosley spread the fascist graffiti "Keep Britain White".

The motor racing journalist Alan Henry, in his book Driving Forces (1992), describes the younger Mosley as one of his father's "right-hand men" at the time of a violent incident in 1962, when the fascist leader was knocked down by a mob in London on his way to address a meeting and was saved from serious injury by his son's intervention. As a result of his involvement in this fracas, Mosley junior was arrested and charged with threatening behaviour, being cleared at Old Street Magistrates' Court on the grounds that he was trying to protect his father.

The archived papers of the Indian Workers' Association contain press cuttings of disputes surrounding invitations to Max Mosley to speak at Birmingham University in both 1963 (page 120) and 1964 (page 123), when his invitation was cancelled.

Max Mosley was for a time the Union Movement's prospective candidate for the Salford East constituency but withdrew shortly before the 1964 General Election.

Also during the early 1960s, English newspapers linked Mosley to the neo-fascist Organisation de l'armée secrète (OAS) which was involved in the Algerian War
:arrow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Mosley

Another reason to suggest Max Mosely should quit?
...

BTW:

His parents were married in the presence of Adolf Hitler in the drawing room of Joseph Goebbels. At 11 weeks old he was packed off to live with relatives when Mum and Dad were banged up in the respective slammers of Holloway and Brixton as a consequence of their Fascist associations.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.j ... ars102.xml

And let me tell you something else. If Stepney doesn't end up in jail for selling Ferrari data to Mclaren than it will mean that whole "spy" affair was staged and that Stepney was part of it together with Montezemolo, Mosley and Todt. He still wasn't found guilty of data theft while FIA already punished Mclaren although court in Italy never made a verdict that Stepney did sell data. If he goes free it means that Ferrari deliberately sold data to Mclaren via "bad boy" in order to win title on court since Mclaren was beating the sh*t out of them.

And another thing; All those satirical Mosley-Schuey-Italian-Ferrari-German-Bridgestone-Japan hints were also probably more realistic than even I thought!

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

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The good thing

about this debate is that it got me reading more. And also, as did Carlos, reminiscing about the "olden days" and reflecting my families' histories in a larger context. (Like one of my cousins being married to a family many of whom are pieds-noirs, an association brought about by the mention of the Algerian war and the OAS. Or how things like how a brother of one of my direct ancestors ordering a whole city to be burned down during the 17th century might reflect on me. Things like that.)

Organised and overt racism is inexcusable as an ideology and an action. It ranges from a very human quality/tendency to be wary of anything unfamiliar, to a cynical and destructive use of such prejudices in politics, conflict and beyond. Yet very few (if none) are completely unaffected by it, and we all have to challenge and examine that tendency within. This is documented beautifully and intricately in a song by Youssou N'Dour and Neneh Cherry, the "Seven seconds". Manchild's Wikipedia quote offered notions by a couple of people, one of them notably described as a "former neo-nazi". This is important. While as an ideology or an action, racism is inexcusable, a person who at some point has adopted these but subsequently rescinded and acted accordingly, can and should be forgiven (the manner of forgiveness being of course contingent on the possibility of legal ramifications of certain racist actions). Getting rid of racism demands a meeting of minds of everyone involved and awarding a possibility for that to happen.

While Manchild in his post definitely gives the benefit of a doubt to a "former neo-nazi", I wonder under what circumstances could he extend the same courtesy towards Max Mosley? For example, a succesful and high profile architect and urban planner, Albert Speer, has scarcely commented on his father (who went by the same name, was also an architect and later on became the minister of armaments in Hitler's regime and featured highly in the Nuremberg trials), but I can't remember anyone calling his son a racist or a nazi - nor do I have any wish or want that he should be challenged so because of his family history.

I very much don't agree with many decisions Max has taken or made possible in his current capacity. I didn't remember his fondness for tobacco advertising. I dislike the engine freeze for its engineering and ecological ramifications. And so on, and so on. If a change in leadership is required to change these things, of course I'll support that, on those very grounds. But I still fail to see what this has got to do with racism. If he absolutely, definitely shared the dreams of his father, circa 1930s or so, surely an Anglo-German venture like McLaren-Mercedes would've been his pet project above all for the last years? If you want to blame Max of anything, he has been more consistently opportunistic than anything else, in apparently supporting the the Labour party for the last decade and a half! And I can only imagine that whatever belief he has held, being the secretary of the Oxford Union, those have been challenged time and again. Anyone debating at Oxford Union should expect nothing less.

Max's finest hour and other stories, by Joe Saward, grandprix.com (link) provides some perspective to these issues.

By this I do not wish to defend Max Mosley as anything else but an example of a person who has basic human rights just as much as anyone. It's his prerogative to fend for himself first and foremost insofar as he's able to do so, and as far as I can tell, he's very capable of doing so without the help of others. I do wish to challenge the notion that the ends justify the means. I do wish to challenge the notion that dragging all sorts of filth to the light of day, no matter how remotely relevant to F1, somehow has the potential to transform the sport or anything else for the better. Things could very well take a turn for the worse if we're not careful. F1 isn't a very nationalistic or ideological sport compared to most others. That's one of the reasons F1 attracts me.

Often, almost invariably really, when conflicts have gone on for a while and people have run out of excuses, history is used to perpetuate the conflict and in teaching the conflict for new generations. Pick and choose what part of history is relevant, and you can rationalise almost anything. We're limited beings and can't study and learn from everything. All the more important then, to realise that this goes for everybody and act accordingly. Ending things once and for all doesn't respect what we don't know or comprehend - and there's always more of that than things we do know and comprehend.

Absolutes don't complement the human condition very well.

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Scuderia_Russ
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Joined: 17 Jan 2004, 22:24
Location: Motorsport Valley, England.

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manchild wrote: Mosley is a racist and a fascist and he hates Hamilton and I got the proof!

:arrow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Mosley
:lol: If it's in Wikipedia it must be reliable.
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-

RH1300S
RH1300S
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Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

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Hmmmm - judge him by his actions, not those of his parents. But David & Manchild have shone a torch into areas I didn't know about.

IMHO - Not a good place to be coming from if you are the President of the FIA.

Despite the screaming rascist headline which will divert the thread.............what about discussing his other actions too, let's bring some balance back. There's plenty of fodder without the race issue.

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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Scuderia_Russ wrote:
manchild wrote: Mosley is a racist and a fascist and he hates Hamilton and I got the proof!

:arrow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Mosley
:lol: If it's in Wikipedia it must be reliable.
bizadfar wrote:
manchild wrote:And let me tell you something else. If Stepney doesn't end up in jail for selling Ferrari data to Mclaren than it will mean that whole "spy" affair was staged and that Stepney was part of it together with Montezemolo, Mosley and Todt. He still wasn't found guilty of data theft while FIA already punished Mclaren although court in Italy never made a verdict that Stepney did sell data. If he goes free it means that Ferrari deliberately sold data to Mclaren via "bad boy" in order to win title on court since Mclaren was beating the sh*t out of them.

And another thing; All those satirical Mosley-Schuey-Italian-Ferrari-German-Bridgestone-Japan hints were also probably more realistic than even I thought!
Where is the loon truck?
I don't have access to archives in UK so I used what I could. If you claim that what was written on Wikipedia is a lie than please quote a source that tells that it isn't the truth. Otherwise I'll start thinking that you're actually supporters of BUF ideas.

Wikipedia also says that "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (commonly known as the United Kingdom, the U.K., or Britain) is a country to the north-west of mainland Europe". Is that a lie too? Is it a lie everything you don't like? Wikipedia says that holocaust happened? Is it a lie too? Will you still reply with calling me names and laughing or show some proofs that support your side of the story?

You can laugh out loud all you want and suggest that I'm for loony truck but unless you prove somehow that Mosley didn't stood behind "Keep Britain White" and still continue to defend him that will mean only one. I'm not saying that you are same as he is but if you continue ignoring historical facts without proving that Wikipedia article is a lie than I'll think that for sure.

Your laughing out loud and calling names are poor attempts to out loud the truth. As I've already said the truth hurts so I understand how you must be feeling.

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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RH1300S wrote:Hmmmm - judge him by his actions, not those of his parents. But David & Manchild have shone a torch into areas I didn't know about.

IMHO - Not a good place to be coming from if you are the President of the FIA.

Despite the screaming rascist headline which will divert the thread.............what about discussing his other actions too, let's bring some balance back. There's plenty of fodder without the race issue.
I have no problem with bringing balance back but after this discovery it seams that he is obviously in huge conflict on interest and as such not suitable to be head of international, multi-racial, multi-ethic and multi-cultural sport.

You can't be a fascist a racist, have police record for behaving aggressively as a fascist a racist, spreading racist slogans "Keep Britain White" aimed against people like Lewis Hamilton and remain position on top of the FIA.

I'm not talking only about from now on but from day one, meaning that everything that happened in F1 since he came on power should be reanalyzed keeping in mind newly discovered facts.

Image

manchild
manchild
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More confirmations:

http://www.portobellofilmfestival.com/t ... gue01.html
Encouraged by the riots, and the Teds’ support, the fascist leader Oswald Mosley made his last comeback attempt, standing as the Union Movement candidate for North Kensington in the 1959 election. In Trevor Grundy’s ‘Memoir of A Fascist Childhood’ hundreds of Teds followed the Leader to his street meetings. Mosley’s sons Alex and Max (the future Formula 1 motor racing leader) canvassed among them, posing for the Daily Mirror as actual upper-class Teds. As the Mosley Youth leader, Grundy fought a losing battle for the hearts and minds of the Teds, with Elvis. ‘The Wizard’ pimp/fascist character, representing ‘the dark side of the teenage dream’ in ‘Absolute Beginners’, was based on youths who told the press: “So a darkie gets chivved, why all the fuss?… Come back tomorrow night, mister, for the next instalment.” Whereas the first and worst local graffiti, ‘Keep Britain White’; initialised as ‘KBW’, and accompanied by Mosley's flash and circle symbol; was by fascist youths like Grundy and Max Mosley, not local Teds. ‘It Happened Here’, Kevin Brownlow and Andrew Mollo’s occupied London documentary-style film, contains a scene where Nazi officers are attacked by local resistance fighters, in the beergarden of the Prince of Wales, on Pottery Lane. When, in reality, at the time of filming in the late 50s and early 60s neo-nazis were getting the pints in for the locals.
http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/feat ... lude=page6


http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/3285233.jpg

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/2662585.jpg

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/2664949.jpg

Could those people be perhaps Hamilton's relatives? Who wrote the graffiti? Same person who said that Hamilton's success is bad for the future of F1.

I've seen it all now. No more doubts.
Last edited by manchild on 15 Nov 2007, 13:19, edited 3 times in total.

zac510
zac510
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

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Great post checkered, I do it no justice quoting only one sentence.
checkered wrote: While Manchild in his post definitely gives the benefit of a doubt to a "former neo-nazi", I wonder under what circumstances could he extend the same courtesy towards Max Mosley?
Good point you make and it shows manchild's inability to employ reason. He accepts the point of a former neo-nazi yet refuses to allow Mosley to have the same honour. In summary: he has already made up his mind about Mosley. manchild's ability to interpret information is clouded and biased by his personal agenda which is to remove Mosley from the FIA.

manchild, have you ever written to Max to ask personally about his stance on the matter that bothers you so much? You judge him so passionately but without speaking to him yourself. He should have a right to defend himself against your public slander.

manchild
manchild
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zac510 wrote:Great post checkered, I do it no justice quoting only one sentence.
checkered wrote: While Manchild in his post definitely gives the benefit of a doubt to a "former neo-nazi", I wonder under what circumstances could he extend the same courtesy towards Max Mosley?
Good point you make and it shows manchild's inability to employ reason. He accepts the point of a former neo-nazi yet refuses to allow Mosley to have the same honour. In summary: he has already made up his mind about Mosley. manchild's ability to interpret information is clouded and biased by his personal agenda which is to remove Mosley from the FIA.

manchild, have you ever written to Max to ask personally about his stance on the matter that bothers you so much? You judge him so passionately but without speaking to him yourself.
I have the right to express my opinion and to stand against what stinks in F1 for over 13 years. My family and families of many people I know felt the horrors of ideas Mosley family spreads and I don't like seeing such person on top of the governing body of the sport I love.

I'm also against it and writing about it for the sake of new generations because these fascist/neonazi bustards are rising all over the globe again.

With people like that I'm not politically correct, I don't talk to them, I don't sit in same room with them and I really don't care at all what you think about me since you obviously don't have problem with that guy's past and presence but you do show signs of big problem in accepting my viewpoints. You've been talking about me but in fact you said more about yourself.

No Pasarán!

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Steven
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Joined: 19 Aug 2002, 18:32
Location: Belgium

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Manchild,

I can perfectly understand where you are coming from. We all know Mosley hasn't been the best FIA president for Formula One and on top of that, you country's history can explain for your reaction.

I don't think however that it is important for his role in the FIA. As said earlier, we should judge him on his actions and sayings (which gives us enough to talk about) and not about his history or that of his parents. Everyone has his history but it doesn't always matter for the present. ;)

And as for pointing to Hamilton... I have had the feeling that Hamilton has been favoured this year and it would certainly be good for F1 for a black guy to win the championship. In that respect I think any relation of Mosley's history and Hamilton is based on nothing.

manchild
manchild
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I'm not talking about his parents and relatives. I'm talking about him and his own fascism and racism. He was the one responsible for these very graffiti linked below, perhaps even wrote them himself. If that's so than how can such person be on top on sport where you have different races and cultures? He is in conflict of interest because he is racist governing the multi-racial sport. No one sane can expect someone who once wrote "Keep Britain White" to treat Lewis Hamilton equally as other drivers. Would you leave a dog to guard a sausage?

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/3285233.jpg

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/2662585.jpg

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/2664949.jpg

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Steven
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manchild wrote:I'm not talking about his parents and relatives. I'm talking about him and his own fascism and racism. He was the one responsible for these very graffiti linked below, perhaps even wrote them himself. ...
Manchild I would agree with you if that were yesterday, but this is 30 years ago... we can go on for ages like this.
with all respect, but looking at it like "Once a racist, always a racist" is not the way you would like to be treated yourself. It's what happens today that matters, not historical facts of 25 or more years ago.

Belatti
Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
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Pardon my ignorance, but isn´t Wikipedia writen by anyone who wants to write there?
How do I know if Manchild was the one who wrote Max little biography there?

Another thing: If Todt raplaces Mad Max as FIA president, FIA preference with Ferrari would turn from "probably" to "certainly".

My questions for manchild: Is Sir Frank a Fascist for letting Max race in his team, too? Will Ferrari/Bridgestone/Schumacher kill 6 millions of jews in the future? Will Scott Speed´s house be "bombed" by Bridgestone in the future? Will Nascar react cause of that and invade Maranello and kill everyone there? :evil:

For me the answer is NO :!: So I will sit down and continue enjoying racig :D

Let Max fry in his own sh*t. Flote in rage or sit back and enjoy, is up to you.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

manchild
manchild
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Ok, so no one trusts Wikipedia, do you trust BBC news archive?

:arrow: http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 776295.stm

You even have video on same page.
BBC wrote: 1962: Violence flares at Mosley rally
Former fascist leader Sir Oswald Mosley has been assaulted at a rally in London's east end.

He and members of his anti-Semitic Blackshirt group were punched to the ground as soon as his meeting opened at Ridley Road, Dalston.

Police were forced to close the meeting within three minutes and made 54 arrests - including Sir Oswald's son Max.


A crowd of several thousand had gathered in the area, where Sir Oswald, leader of the Union Movement formerly known as the British Union of Fascists, planned to speak from the back of a lorry.

As soon as he appeared from between two police buses the crowd surged forward and knocked Sir Oswald to the ground.

He tried to fight back from the cobbles, before police helped him to climb on the lorry prepared for his address.

'Drowned out'

He was met by a hail of missiles including rotten fruit, pennies and stones and people tried to storm the platform.

His speech was drowned out by continuous boos and a chorus of "down with the fascists".

Scuffles continued as Sir Oswald was shepherded to his car and his vehicle was punched and kicked as it drove off though a gangway cleared by mounted police.

Trouble started long before the meeting began as over 200 police - including 10 on horseback - attempted to clear an area around the lorry-platform.

It took the authorities another hour after Sir Oswald left to clear people from nearby Kingsland High Road.

Those arrested will appear in court tomorrow charged with public order offences.

Amongst the injured were last year's Mayor of Hackney, Alderman Sherman, and his wife.

They both received medical treatment after being struck with an iron bar.

Sir Oswald, a former Labour MP and junior minister, became leader of the British Union of Fascists in 1932.

During the war, he and his wife Diana Mitford, were interned for being a threat to national security. Then in 1948, Sir Oswald formed the Union Party but failed to get a seat in the 1959 general election.