Renault in new spy scandal!

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flynfrog
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dumrick wrote:Well, this is a carbon copy of the Stepneygate, the difference is that the information was not given away by an outside team, but actually stolen.

In my opinion, Renault understood that logic would make them liable of, at least, the same charges that McLaren was and disclosed all the matter by themselves, to try to gain a "simpathy bonus". The obvious question is: why only now?
I disagree reault informed Maca and the FIA asap. they didnt try to hide it and the drivers were not involved. On the other hand Mclearn lied covered up any thing they could until it was too late

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HKS
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Come on Flavio is no Ron.
And Renault isn't like Mclaren.

And I fell Ron wants others also to be fined and so :P
Racing cars are neither beautiful nor ugly, they are beautiful only when you win races.

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Rob W
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From the statement from Renault today they have admitted being in possession of McLaren data, that the team-member loaded it onto his computer, showed (downscaled) drawings of McLaren's fuel-tank and gearbox.

Renault say as soon as they knew they removed everything, send the originals back to McLaren etc.

On the basis of these admissions, the punishment for Renault, according to the rules of F1 and the president set with McLaren's punishment, must be exclusion from 2007, removing of all of their constructor points and a fine.

There simply is no reason not to since they've admitted the crime of possession, showing to other team-members and non-disclosure to the FIA immediately. (that they claim they didn't make any use of the information is almost irrelevant)

Rob W

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Sawtooth-spike
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i think your right Rob, somebody at renault will have used that information directly or indirectly.

FIA has set president on this, so it needs to be roughtly the same punishment as Mclarren. Would find it funny if alonso moved to renault then the team got banned in 08.... not that the FIA would cus that would be unfair... funny but unfair.

i think the docking of points and a Fine would show the FIA are being consistant.
I believe in the chain of command, Its the chain I use to beat you till you do what i want!!!

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Tom
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The FIA have absolubtly no choice in the matter, they have to fine Renault and strip their championship points for either 06 (unlikely) or 07. I don't want them to, but I didn't want them to do that to Mclaren either, unless of course Mclaren actually go out of their way to pardon Renault, although that is obviously not going to happen and probably won't work anyway.

It will be interesting to see if the FIA have learnt from the earlier case and opperate discretely without damaging the sport. Fat chance.
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checkered
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Floppy disks? Paper copies? Strange

how there seem to be such outdated practices involved in these recent cases. Renault is in deep trouble, that much is clear, and I can foresee a situation where the company would rather just supply engines to the sport than run its namesake team. In the 2011 suggestions, there's a bit that would allow the exchange of technical information between the teams within the sport to a clearly defined degree. We'd obviously need such an addition to the sporting regulations now, or better yet, yesterday.

It's a bit funny and a bit sad to see how much some people (even journalists) still smart over the McLaren spy decisions and thus are willing to jump to equally ill adviced conclusions, processes and solutions out of spite for the precedent! There's just little to no logic there and not judging the Renault case by its own merits will only harm the sport further. If the "original" spy case wasn't handled wisely (and there are too many opinions about this for me to specify here why and how I agree or disagree with that blanket statement, see the original thread if interested) are we not to learn from those mistakes to get a form of revenge on the whole sport collectively?

Some are also quick to say that this is an entirely comparable case. We know too little of this to date to say that. Heck, we know too little of the "original" case to know that (and you can read something into my opinions in that statement alone). At least there doesn't seem to have been a person at McLaren who would've fed Renault every setup and tactical decision McLaren took in testing and race weekends and who would've kept them up to date about developments. Also it's really simplistic to say that Renault merits a $100M fine as it was clearly stated in the transcripts that the amount was in some proportion to McLaren's financial capabilities. One would expect then, that if the deed is comparable, the sum should still be different.

I wasn't born yesterday, so I'm fully aware that some might hope that demanding the exact same process and outcome that McLaren received might force a change in the leadership of the sport, or an unprecedented reconsideration of McLarens treatment. The first option is within the realm of possibilities and given the possible repercussions of continuing down the trodden path, perhaps even advisable. But you'd better not believe that this can be achieved by demanding a fine of $100M for Renault, because that's what McLaren "got" and it's "unthinkable". If you believe that the FIA won't do that, you may be playing chicken with the wrong people.

More importantly, if you believe there was injustice in the "original" punishment (and again, I can't go into how I might agree or disagree with anyone on this here) - well, two wrongs won't make it right (or just). Despite personal preferences and dislikes.

Perhaps it's worth noting that from the very beginning of the Mclaren-Ferrari case, for my insignificant part I advocated transparency, closure and leniency. There were many who did the same, sooner or later. My approach and standpoint to this new case isn't any different to the "original" one. So if someone didn't advocate the stripping of Mclaren's points and a fine of $100M, but does so now, I'm at least intrigued as to how such a change in mind has come about and whether the perceived outcome from repeating that is just, positive, or negative?

There's a pretty good article about this, and the way forward, in the Telegraph: Bernie Ecclestone holds crisis meeting - link, article by Kevin Garside ... worth a read, and will give food for thought.

Steve Wilson
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I suppose maybe where the difference might occur is if Renault can conclusively prove that they did not use any of McLarens data on their car whatsoever. That in itself is a very difficult thing to achieve (something which clearly McLaren could not prove) and I can only see Renault getting a similar sort of punishment to McLaren.

The situation seems very similar, Briatore saying that as soon as he knew about it it was reported, and I stand by the fact that Ron did likewise.

dumrick
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flynfrog wrote:
dumrick wrote:Well, this is a carbon copy of the Stepneygate, the difference is that the information was not given away by an outside team, but actually stolen.

In my opinion, Renault understood that logic would make them liable of, at least, the same charges that McLaren was and disclosed all the matter by themselves, to try to gain a "simpathy bonus". The obvious question is: why only now?
I disagree reault informed Maca and the FIA asap. they didnt try to hide it and the drivers were not involved. On the other hand Mclearn lied covered up any thing they could until it was too late
:D :D
That's a joke right? This statement came AFTER the FIA revealed the team was under investigation, and the earliest facts date from more than 1 year ago!!!

Ciwai
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dumrick wrote:That's a joke right? This statement came AFTER the FIA revealed the team was under investigation, and the earliest facts date from more than 1 year ago!!!
That agrees with the autosport article which said. "This information was part of a number of floppy disks that engineer Phil Mackareth brought with him to the Enstone team from McLaren in September 2006." So, they had it for over a year before we heard anything about it.

I didn't follow the Mclaren case too closely, but it appeared that there wasn't any evidence that any espionage related technology was used in their car either. The verdict was ludicrous, but it set the precedent. It should logically follow that Renault's points should be eliminated from the past 2 seasons including the driver's since in this case there was no immunity.

allan
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Ciwai wrote:I didn't follow the Mclaren case too closely, but it appeared that there wasn't any evidence that any espionage related technology was used in their car either. The verdict was ludicrous, but it set the precedent. It should logically follow that Renault's points should be eliminated from the past 2 seasons including the driver's since in this case there was no immunity.
But don't forget that Mclaren were not punished until ferrari appealed and brought the emails evidence. Mclaren were not punished from the begining because they "Did not use the info.", but they did lie about that since the emails between the drivers show their intentions to use the Ferrari data. In this case, renault claims the same, they "Did not use the info", and i think it would be unfair if they were punished, while mclaren weren't when they claimed the same...

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Rob W
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Tom wrote:The FIA have absolubtly no choice in the matter, they have to fine Renault and strip their championship points for either 06 (unlikely) or 07.
From the latest news on P-F1...
"more than 15 members of the team examined McLaren technical data."
http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954, ... 79,00.html

There is just no reason to not give them the big stick now. Renault, possibly misguidedly, thought that by coming clean and proving they didn't use the info somehow would allow them to get off. But the crime is in possession - not the use of the info. They have admitted guilt, admitted at least 15 people saw the info - including senior technical staff.

I actually think Renault are going to be excluded from 2008 unless all of the quotes I've seen have just been made up. The FIA wants to stomp on the whole issue of cheating and leaving Renault's integrity in doubt would further diminish people's faith in F1. (especially sponsors)

Rob W

Ciwai
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allan wrote:Mclaren were not punished from the begining because they "Did not use the info.", but they did lie about that since the emails between the drivers show their intentions to use the Ferrari data.
They intended to use the data but didn't? Its not lying if they still didn't use the info. Can you convict someone for intending to rob a bank?

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checkered
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There is just no reason to not give them the big stick now. Renault, possibly misguidedly, thought that by coming clean and proving they didn't use the info somehow would allow them to get off. But the crime is in possession - not the use of the info. They have admitted guilt, admitted at least 15 people saw the info - including senior technical staff.

I actually think Renault are going to be excluded from 2008 unless all of the quotes I've seen have just been made up. The FIA wants to stomp on the whole issue of cheating and leaving Renault's integrity in doubt would further diminish people's faith in F1. (especially sponsors)

Rob W
I'm interested, from

a legal standpoint, is there a clear cut difference between possession and use of intellectual property anyway? I mean, knowledge of the contents of any intellectual property is going to affect what one does and considers by default, doesn't it? On the subject of Renault coming clean, I'm not quite sure of the timelines suggested here ... there was a lot happening much earlier, it was just pretty much lost in the noise of the Ferrari-McLaren affair.

McLaren did go to the FIA with the issue, but it might've not been before Renault had directly informed McLaren of their "find", (it's been clearly stated that if two teams do not wish to include the FIA in resolving such issues bilaterally or on solely legal basis, the FIA will not intervene as was the case between Toyota getting hold of Ferrari software from two ex-Ferrari employees) possibly in the hopes that this way their indiscretion could be dealt with differently. If this was the case, clearly McLaren felt that it was in their interest to get the FIA involved, possibly in the hopes that F1 couldn't withstand two major punishments simultaneously and saving them from exclusion. McLaren did use the services of a private security firm to inspect Renault's information systems to establish the extent that the files had been used, with Renault's co-operation.

Thus I feel that Renault's exclusion, while possible, is somewhat unlikely at this point. The same folks are going to decide and with McLaren, the "minority of lawyers" (Max proclaiming himself to be at their forefront) lost out to the general opinion that for the sake of "excitement and competition", all points weren't taken away and the team wasn't excluded. Also, I don't think the customer car issue is resolved and at this point it's very unclear whether there'd be 10 teams on the grid without Renault. Very many TV deals and sponsors have that minimum stated in their contracts.

It's interesting that Ecclestone couldn't help but exclude McLaren, Ferrari and Renault from his "crisis meeting". It's all very tense, as this is not the time to get lost in internal squabbles anyway. Some of the "smaller" teams now find themselves in a very strong bargaining position. Stoddy must be biting his lip by now.

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checkered
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checkered wrote:I wasn't born yesterday, so I'm fully aware that some might hope that demanding the exact same process and outcome that McLaren received might force a change in the leadership of the sport, or an unprecedented reconsideration of McLarens treatment.
In 'Oh, what a tangled web', grandprix.com wrote:Probably the best idea idea for the FIA would be to decide that there cannot be an FIA Fund and to declare that the McLaren decision was improper.
...

If the FIA was to admit that it overstepped the mark when it decided to rule on the McLaren case, the problems would be solved.
...

This is all speculation at the moment but one thing that has emerged is that the times are changing and the sport must change with them.
Oh, what a tangled web - link, gradprix.com

Q.E.D with regard

to my earlier statement, as I see it. I'd rather not see people trying to make it appear that tying all these events together in order to rewrite history is in the best interest of the sport. Nor trying to portray the Renault case in terms solely aimed at a potential revision of a separate case. It's not only the FIA that has taken decisions that are problematic, to say the least, considering the future of F1. The teams that are directly involved have overplayed their hands in a glaring manner, and they're doing no services to anyone. At least not to the other teams - and we should remember there are other teams in F1, I'm sure completely bemused by the "Spy vs. Spy" show.

Image
Image linked from npr.org

Defending the interest of just one at the cost of the sport in general will only result in worse, not better, outcomes. I truly hope Bernie is able, once more, to show the way forward. It's almost unfair to demand that of him, and so I hope his crisis meeting was fruitful and that his future plans involve persons who can and will share his burden effectively henceforth. I'm truly worried by the current shortsightedness and the prevalence of the form of selfishness that defeats its own purpose. If push comes to shove, I'm willing to say that certain principles, in the long term, override the perceived necessity of the presence of certain teams in F1.

millerjam
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Just a point, does anyone think Renault can survive an investigation into its practices at this time?
After all they are running a grand prix team on a shoe string budget compared to Toyota for example plus the damage that it would do to its credability as a manufacturer might prove disasterous.

After all the boss of Renault isn't exactly F1 freindly, and assuming they recieve a 100M dollar fine (after all there is a precedent here...), do you think it could pave the way for them to exit the sport??