A visious and vendictive vendetta

[NickT]

The FIA and Max Moseley are both nothing more than slanderous, vicious and vindictive bully boys set on settling old personal scores through open victimisation and intimidation.

McLaren v Ferrari = $100,000,000 fine, no points from 2007, the wrong end of the pitlane for 2008 with 2 garages next year and a soured reputation.

Renault v McLaren = a slap on the wrist, keep their points and the money, keep their position in the pit lane, 3 garages, travel assistance and their integrity.

I challenge anyone out there to demonstrate how the punishment delt out to Renault is in anyway comparable to that given to McLaren and how Renault's offence against McLaren is any less serious than McLaren's offence against Ferrari. McLaren's punishment was based on a "perceived" advantage they may have gained from the Ferrari data, data that was never in the McLaren building or on it's database. Renault had a complete set of drawings and data for both of McLaren's 2006 and 2007 cars, this data was available and used on the Renault database from the end of 2006.

All I can say about Max Moseley is, like father, like son. His behaviour over the last year reminds me of the very person and party his father supported in the 1930s+40s. Yesterday's verdict just goes to show how consistent and fair the FIA are in their dealings with all the teams - NOT. Mr Moseley I hope, with the greatest of sincerity, that you and your team at the FIA are subjected to the same scrutiny buy the EU Commision and like wise subjected to similar penalties and retribution, for Mr Moseley, you and your team are more guilty of bringing F1 into disrepute than any other group of people in the pit lane.

[waynes]

i see that mclaren have to wait until febuary for the WMSC to decide if their car is legit or not

[mcdenife]

Yes, Wayne, afterall the FIA has to have some kinda hold on them, no? This is probably to say "create too much of a fuss and we will make life difficult for you"

[NickT]

Yes, Wayne, after all the FIA has to have some kinda hold on them, no? This is probably to say "create too much of a fuss and we will make life difficult for you"

I would go as far as to say: "now we've got you by the nuts we are publicly going to rub your nose in it"

Sorry guys, I could stomach the McLaren case, but this has really hacked me off. Parents, teachers, law makers and enforcement agencies generally work quite hard on being consistent in the application and enforcement of rules. The FIA is a law unto themselves answerable to no one.

[mx_tifoso]

This thread is ¨Manchild Bait¨. Whether he catches on or not, only time will tell.

[PNSD]

Its not manchild bait.

Its the truth. The evidence is there to show that Renaults actions were just as worse, if not worse than Mclarens.

For Mclaren it was more so the drivers involved in sharing data. With this it is qualified engineers looking at other idea's and analysing them for their own use, ie. the J damper!

There was NO FACTUAL evidence of Mclaren using Ferrari data to hlep them design their car.

But reading the FIA transcript of the Renault hearing, there seems to be plenty of FACTUAL evidence that Renault saw/read and used Mclaren material. The fact that i had not effected the championship is irrelvant.. a crime is a crime if it succeeds or not.

to further illustrate my point.

I could go up to max mosley with a gun, go to shoot him, then miss.

now by FIA's logic, because I missed I can off free.

[Belatti]

Manchild is a Renault fan. I bet that he will say its OK.

Just the same that he said before with McLaren-gate: It´s unfair for McLaren.

[bettonracing]

Not that I support the FIA's decision on any of the 2 cases but I was under the impression that the perceived advantage gained by Mclaren was related to track data that the race engineers & drivers had access to (pit strategies, fuel loads & mileage, etc). Given this info, as well as a comparable car, one could gain an advantage by altering pit strategies to gain an advantage in qualifying (which for the most part dictated the race last season).

Using that argument, one could argue that Renault had no such advantage whereas Mclaren certainly showed an advantage in qualifying (although it could be argued that the advantage was design based...)

Food for thought.

Kurt

[bettonracing]

Double post.

[megz]

McLaren were constantly getting new info from Stepney so McLaren had access to current and relevant Ferrari info based on the current car and these were technical drawings, vehicle dynamics information etc.

Renault has 4 pictures, 3 of which were dismissed by the team and 1 sent to the FIA for a rule clarification (J Damper) Renault throughout never withheld any info from the FIA.

I don't agree with how either case has been dealt with but there is at least some doubt as to wether or not McLaren used the info, Alonso reportedly tried the weight distribution in a simulator and the McLaren rushed in it's light gear box... Its contovertial, its skeptical. But who knows...

[mx_tifoso]

PNSD, I understand and was merely adding a bit of humour, or so I thought, to this thread.

I also understand the seriousness of this topic too, but I won´t go any further as to add my opinion of the FIA ruling on the McLaren vs Renault case. Probably because I don´t have the complete case, with evidence, in front of me and thus wouldn´t be able to make a fair and just decision.

Megz and Bettonracing make very good points too.

[manchild]

Manchild is a Renault fan. I bet that he will say its OK.

Just the same that he said before with McLaren-gate: It´s unfair for McLaren.

viewtopic.php?t=4886&start=84

You all know that I'm a Renault fan but I'll still say that ruling against Renault with no punishment only proves that there is no fairness in WMSC at all. Seniority level rubbish my ass.

Since punishing Renault would mean no benefit for Ferrari, WMSC didn't punish Renault. As simple as that.

Renault had blueprints for two season Mclaren cars while Mclaren had blueprints only for one season Ferrari car. And of course, there are no black drivers in Renault so that must have helped too.

Remember when Ferrari pulled strings to close down factory in South Africa that was manufacturing special alloy for Mclaren in late 90s? Senior management of Ferrari knew about secret material Mclaren used. What ever happened to them? Did WMSC ever questioned how Ferrari senior management found out about specific part on Mclaren car?

Was there ever a punishment for Ferrari because their senior management caused farce in Austrian GP which led to death of that GP? Wasn't that against FIA sporting regulations?

F1 today = Chicago 1930's. Bunch of rival gangs, corrupted police and courts. Gang that is most generous to corrupted police and courts becomes favored.

What we need is modern F1 Eliot Ness = Paul Stoddart

Having in mind the big picture - the overall illegal activities in F1, I'd still say it is unfair that only certain teams go punished in any way because the team that invented cheating and scams has never faced any similar punishment. Punish all who break the law or punish none. Biased anarchy is much worse than unbiased anarchy. In unbiased anarchy at least everyone has same conditions and chances for success.

[ForceI]

McLaren v Ferrari = $100,000,000 fine, no points from 2007, the wrong end of the pitlane for 2008 with 2 garages next year and a soured reputation.

Renault v McLaren = a slap on the wrist, keep their points and the money, keep their position in the pit lane, 3 garages, travel assistance and their integrity.

First hearing
McLaren V Ferrari = McLaren get off free, Ferrari appeal after learning of things such as emails. Ferrari win after appeal. McLaren still somehow manage to come out smelling of roses despite cheating and consistently lieing to the press with comments about being sporting and taking it on the chin, yet straight away appealing and trying to get a rival team the same punishment



Renault V McLaren = Renault get off free, McLaren still have the right to appeal the same way Ferrari did. What should be taken to account in the appeal is McLarens lieing and cheating.



Meh seems like a pretty fair result to me, although I'm sure if it was Ferrari being accused they'd deserve having every team member being beheaded

[mx_tifoso]

ForceI, I welcome you to THE forum and wish you the best of times during your time here.

But, you commence your presence here with pretty strong comments. And I would like to advise you to get your facts completely straight, especially on threads such as this, or related topics, or you might encounter pretty fierce opposition.

In addition, your post is full of subjective statements, rather than objective ones, which are considered more factful and accurate. And are taken more seriously as well, which contributes to your overall credibility.

[ForceI]

Hi Thanks for the welcome

I know I should have maybe included facts rather than what I feel but I've been quite annoyed since Renault got off, as I've seen a lot of posts on other forums where people post similar things to the OP saying that FIA are only trying to make Ferrari win etc, yet they forget the outcome of the Ferrari-McLaren case was the same at this stage.

I'm not sure what you mean though with your last paragraph, do you mean it's better to be subjective or to become more objective?