Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.

Do you support standard output engines?

Yes
13
27%
No
30
63%
Not sure
5
10%
 
Total votes: 48

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Shaddock
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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xpensive wrote:When I belive that anthing is possible after this, I would like to take the opportunity to make a notice of my crystal-ball pediction, that we will see six-race 2.6l methanol turbo V8s in 2010 or 2011. Any takers?
I'll put my money where my mouth is. No chance for 2010 in F1 [-X

zoru
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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I have two questions regarding the standard engine.
What is your opinion?

1. If the manufactures can still build their own
engine, how can the FIA standarize the output?

Regulating the max HP makes no sense.
Is it possible to build an engine that has the
same power curve for the whole rev range as another?
Will there be a toloerance band?
If so, how much? Because surely they will map
the engine to the upper limit of the tolerance.
(unless the Cosworth unit is much more powerful
than the manufactures'.)

2. When a standard engine blows up, does the driver
still get a grid penalty?
If a driver loses the championship because his standard
engine blows up, can everybody (including his fans)
accept that?

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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Sigh, another long post. I'm going to bore you to death. Sorry, no pictures this time. ;)

1- FIA mentions these parameters, altough it opens the door for many more checks (it says: "any other matter which affects or may have an effect, however minor, on sporting performance"):

- "Heat rejection, weight, dimensions, centre of gravity, stiffness values" (for helping the chassis designers)

- The engines might have "any capacity or configuration, with or without forced induction" (all emphasis are mine) "provided that the power output is 500kW (+/- 50kW) and provided that the power curve is suitable for racing. Engine power degradation should be consistent as between individual units to within +/- 0.75% (or some similar percentage to be specified by the tenderer) at all times in the engine’s expected lifetime."

- "Engines should not exceed 100kg"

- "... all the performance parameters of any team’s engines (must be) within +/- 0.5% of the selected tenderer’s own engines"

- "... FIA will nominate single supplier(s) so that all teams use the same fuel and oil"

- "The weight of the overall transmission system should not exceed 50 kg (such weight limit to include any adaptor plates)"

- "The gearbox casing must allow for the attachment of an adaptor plate such that a reasonable variety of suspension mounting points can be achieved. Details of required suspension mounting points will be determined by the FIA within six weeks of the award of the tender."

- "Gearboxes... shall accomplish gear-shifts within 50ms"

- "Gearboxes (will have)... no more than fifteen available ratios, with no more than two variants of final drive ratio"

Nowadays engine mappings are variable, the driver can change them.

"There are two switches for engine control on the steering wheel. In particular one allows the driver to change the engine map, allowing him to choose one of several options - each one corresponds to a different fuelling of the engine. Typically number one is the performance fuelling map, and he has then four other possible maps where he can save fuel during the lap."

Of course, regulations state that these maps have to be fixed during the event, that is, when the car is on the track, the ignition and fuel settings (which define the power of the engine) must maintain the same relationship with engine speed and in turn, with throttle position.

There are also exceptions in this area, such as compensation for throttle acceleration, changes in pressure and temperature within the engine, and, as mentioned, driver-altered fuel mixture.

Besides, they can use lambda regulation. It works "according to a modified PID algorithm practically delay-free over the entire rpm/load spectrum, the reference as derived from a lambda data table / map with additional specific operating corrections. The regulation works adaptively, i.e. from the measured values of the lambda probes, model values are derived, which are stored in an adaptation data table / map. Through continual updating of engine electronics long-term performance data are held on a constant level."

2- "In the event that there are any disputes between the PROVIDER and any COMPETITOR as to what constitutes reasonable wear and tear and what constitutes unreasonable use, the PROVIDER shall refer the matter to the COORDINATOR for a determination."

"In the event of any ENGINE failure – whether during testing or during an EVENT – the PROVIDER shall submit to the COORDINATOR and the COMPETITOR concerned a detailed report into the reasons for such failure."

Coordinator means FIA, provider means Cosworth.

Of course the fans... well, we, the fans. Sigh.

3- Yes, I know there was no question number 3. I take the opportunity to mention a couple of things that the forum, in its infinite wisdom, ;) hasn't talked about:

From 2013 on, cars will also be required to have a chassis with many more “common parts” and will include standard suspension systems, wheels and underbodies.

A second new engine regime will start in 2013 with power trains (engine and gearbox) incorporating heat and exhaust recovery systems.

FIA asks team principals to propose "standardisation of other parts which are the subject of major expenditure but add nothing to the spectacle or the public interest in Formula One"

Mosley also points to "in future, teams will be able to run on budgets equal to the television rights money distributed to them by Formula One Management (FOM). If divided equally, this would allocate £40-50million to each team compared with present technical budgets more than three times that amount"

Man, I'd swear this guy is reading this forum and siding with the smart ones around here, like, for example, me... :D

Well, what the... this post is huge, let's throw a picture, 8):

Day of Candles in Colombia: Merry Christmas, Feliz Navidad.
Image
Ciro

timbo
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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Thanks for that post Ciro! =D>
I hope that is the right way... Well, being in complaint mode (mood :lol: ), I'd say that I don't like standart suspension idea... Maybe standart sets of springs, damplers etc, but not actual suspension geometry, cause it would fix cars in mechanical grip. You can predict that everybody would use same weight distribution, that would lead to the same aero balance and everything else.
Wasn't it exciting this year to watch two top cars - Ferrari F2008 (I mention it first cause it won CC and I'm a fan :lol: ) and McLaren MP4/23, with 180 degrees different mechanical/aero philosophy competing?
I'm also all for standart wheels and brakes. I'd only hope that QC in that crucial parts of the package won't go down...

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Metar
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Joined: 23 Jan 2008, 11:35

Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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One of my favourite aspects in the last two years was predicting whether McLaren's or Ferrari's philosophy will dominate a given weekend - and the fact that they completely swapped positions between 2007 and 2008.


Standard wheels and brakes will bring absolutely no change to the sport, assuming they stick with carbons. The brakes are already supplied by very few suppliers, and it doesn't appear as if there's any difference between teams in this case. Wheels, well, they're moving at dozens of revolutions per second (thus, no visual difference when moving), they're already slightly obscured by the tyres, and then come the rim-shields (unless they're illegal next year?) - we can't see them, or differentiate between them.

You may argue I'm therefore a hypocrite, since I just stated in another thread how much I oppose spec monocoques (which are invisibly tucked under the aero), but that wheels (exterior parts) can be standardized - but fact is, one of those is a big factor in a car's performance, and it's a part that doesn't usually rotate too fast.

I'm also sharply against spec suspensions, since these are a very major factor in a car's performance - and one which should, under no circumstances, be cut for budget reasons: It's where teams can show their skill regardless of money (considering carbon is already used by teams, and the design doesn't require a tunnel and hundreds of computers), by designing the most efficient suspensions to match their cars and drivers. Williams had a superb chassis-suspension combo this season - if it wasn't for the disastrous aerodynamics of the FW30, it could've been a great car. Toro Rosso tweaked theirs to match Vettel perfectly. Renault's early-season car had a nervous rear end - and suspension-modifications fixed that, and turned the early-season inconsistent R28 into a race-winning and consistently-scoring car, stable under every condition.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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Ciro quoted quite correctly from the tender document. Following the selection of Cosworth and the gearbox/clutch suppliers many of the variable conditions are now fixed because Cosworth will use their existing F1 V8 engine. This was the main reason why they were able to beat Illien who would have had to design a suitable engine from scratch.

The weight, center of gravity, V angle, cylinder pitch, stroke, stiffness and a bunch of other issues are effectively settled by this move. Cosworth 2006 unit is very simillar to the big five 2.4L 90° V8 machines because all six units started with the same narrow design specification.

It is also clear that all units will be detuned to meet the power ceiling and longevity demands of the FiA. We can also quite easily extrapolate how they are going to do the equalising. All engines will have torque instrumentation and that will enable the SECU to regulate the power output across the whole rpm spectrum.

It is a very effective way to focus the competitors on fuel saving for competitive advantage. My hope is that they will also cut fuel flow of the refuelling machines to emphasise this incentive.

Regarding further standardization my guess is they will go for steel suspension and standard brakes, wheels, wheel nuts and brake ducts. Fuel and lube will be standard as specified and that could pull the oil pumps and the lubrication systems into the standard list. The monocoque will be untouchable because Sir Frank will defend that with his life. Nose, side pots, airbox, radiators and the space between the tub and the engine will be individual to accomodate the different requirements of KERS and in future HERS. Same goes for wings within the limits allrady agreed.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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flynfrog
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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WhiteBlue wrote:Ciro quoted quite correctly from the tender document. Following the selection of Cosworth and the gearbox/clutch suppliers many of the variable conditions are now fixed because Cosworth will use their existing F1 V8 engine. This was the main reason why they were able to beat Illien who would have had to design a suitable engine from scratch.

The weight, center of gravity, V angle, cylinder pitch, stroke, stiffness and a bunch of other issues are effectively settled by this move. Cosworth 2006 unit is very simillar to the big five 2.4L 90° V8 machines because all six units started with the same narrow design specification.

It is also clear that all units will be detuned to meet the power ceiling and longevity demands of the FiA. We can also quite easily extrapolate how they are going to do the equalising. All engines will have torque instrumentation and that will enable the SECU to regulate the power output across the whole rpm spectrum.

It is a very effective way to focus the competitors on fuel saving for competitive advantage. My hope is that they will also cut fuel flow of the refuelling machines to emphasise this incentive.

Regarding further standardization my guess is they will go for steel suspension and standard brakes, wheels, wheel nuts and brake ducts. Fuel and lube will be standard as specified and that could pull the oil pumps and the lubrication systems into the standard list. The monocoque will be untouchable because Sir Frank will defend that with his life. Nose, side pots, airbox, radiators and the space between the tub and the engine will be individual to accomodate the different requirements of KERS and in future HERS. Same goes for wings within the limits allrady agreed.
so what will be the point of watching then?

a series that costs 100times more than IRL wiht steel suspension and some greenie gimmicks slap on to turn even slower lap times?

donskar
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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Ciro, thanks for all your work getting this out to us. Much appreciated. My quarter-cent worth in italics:

"1- FIA mentions these parameters, altough it opens the door for many more checks (it says: "any other matter which affects or may have an effect, however minor, on sporting performance"):

- "Heat rejection, weight, dimensions, centre of gravity, stiffness values" (for helping the chassis designers).
This will, IHMO, make it VERY difficult for manufacturers to build their own engines. Can a manufacturer NOT build an engine that is more efficient that the "standard" unit?

- The engines might have "any capacity or configuration, with or without forced induction" (all emphasis are mine) "provided that the power output is 500kW (+/- 50kW) and provided that the power curve is suitable for racing. Engine power degradation should be consistent as between individual units to within +/- 0.75% (or some similar percentage to be specified by the tenderer) at all times in the engine’s expected lifetime."
Sounds like this allows manufacturers to build engines that have identical peak values to the standard engine, but different power curves. Cosworth has always built engines with good drivability, but, if the standard engine is "peaky," BMW, Ferrari, etc might build one with identical peak values but with a broader power curve. Allowed? One can hope?

- "Engines should not exceed 100kg"

- "... all the performance parameters of any team’s engines (must be) within +/- 0.5% of the selected tenderer’s own engines"
Huh? "ALL"? If the standard engine produces 600 HP @ 14,000 and 650 @ 15,000 (for sake of discussion only), then non-standard engines must be within +/- .5% of those values at those revs?!?

- "... FIA will nominate single supplier(s) so that all teams use the same fuel and oil"
Won't that reduce the teams' sponsorship money? Will Shell/Mobil/Petronas still support Ferrari/McL/BMW?

- "The gearbox casing must allow for the attachment of an adaptor plate such that a reasonable variety of suspension mounting points can be achieved. Details of required suspension mounting points will be determined by the FIA within six weeks of the award of the tender." So now the FIA is in the suspension design business?

- "Gearboxes (will have)... no more than fifteen available ratios, with no more than two variants of final drive ratio"
TWO final drives? One high speed (Monza) and one low speed (Monaco) with nothing in between? Stupid


2- "In the event that there are any disputes between the PROVIDER and any COMPETITOR as to what constitutes reasonable wear and tear and what constitutes unreasonable use, the PROVIDER shall refer the matter to the COORDINATOR for a determination."

"In the event of any ENGINE failure – whether during testing or during an EVENT – the PROVIDER shall submit to the COORDINATOR and the COMPETITOR concerned a detailed report into the reasons for such failure."

Coordinator means FIA, provider means Cosworth.

Of course the fans... well, we, the fans. Sigh.
AMEN

3- Yes, I know there was no question number 3. I take the opportunity to mention a couple of things that the forum, in its infinite wisdom, hasn't talked about:

From 2013 on, cars will also be required to have a chassis with many more “common parts” and will include standard suspension systems, wheels and underbodies.
Will this be the point where F1 is slower than GP2 - or even earlier?

A second new engine regime will start in 2013 with power trains (engine and gearbox) incorporating heat and exhaust recovery systems.
I'm sure THAT will reduce costs! :lol:

FIA asks team principals to propose "standardisation of other parts which are the subject of major expenditure but add nothing to the spectacle or the public interest in Formula One"
F1 becomes the NASCAR open-wheel series.

Mosley also points to "in future, teams will be able to run on budgets equal to the television rights money distributed to them by Formula One Management (FOM). If divided equally, this would allocate £40-50million to each team compared with present technical budgets more than three times that amount"
OK. Good. But won't the better teams get more sponsorship money? Teams that have greater visibility and success (Ferrari, Mclaren) will simply be able to gain more sponsors and sponsorship money. Will they have to put that "excess" budget into a pot to be divided among the also-rans? Otherwise, teams like Ferrari and Mclaren will always have bigger budgets, and (logically) faster cars.

Ah well, the upside of these changes is that I'll be able to sleep in on Sunday mornings rather than get up at 6:00 am.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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flynfrog wrote: so what will be the point of watching then?

a series that costs 100times more than IRL wiht steel suspension and some greenie gimmicks slap on to turn even slower lap times?
They can still decide to increase the allowed regen power in 2010 and feed that back without the funny push button. I hope they do that. I also hope that teams will not oppose KERS as a competitive advantage once they cannot get performance from the engine.

The original plan was to keep lap times constant. The teams can nail the FiA on that objective. I don't understand what difference you see between metal and composite suspension rods if it is same material for all. The geometry would be different and they could still use J-dampers or any other new system they would come up with.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

donskar
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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Am I alone in thinking that Bernie/FIA are intent on selling mere spectacle - sizzle rather than steak? They see F1 as entertainment/marketing rather than what we might define as automotive competition. That might work, in terms of making lots of money for Bermie and cohorts. But it will lose the enthusiast audience - the group of people who buy the car magazines, visit the web sites and participate in forums like this one.

The new F1 will be a glorified spec series, dumbed down but loud and flashy, with the beautiful people enjoying their 15 minutes of fame, the poseurs, the hangers-on, and generally the wealthy. 8) (Very much like many sporting events in the USA, where admissions rule out frequent attendance by the lower or even middle class.) Of course Bernie will throw out trendy bones like KERS and "socialawareness", but only as an aid to PR, all leading to more money.

On cost controls: Let's assume the budget of the future - the pot of revenue equally divided - is $50 million per team (round number for sake of discussion). "What if" a team takes on a driver who pays $10 million for the ride. Is that considered to be "excess" to the budget cap? Do they have to divide it up among all the teams? Or just give it to Bernie? :lol: Will imbalances in sponsorship from team to team be divided among all the teams?

"What if" McLaren gets $10 million from Mobil, but Ferrari gets only $5 million from Shell? And Williams has no oil/gas sponsor at all . . .

I see a coming Renaissance for US open wheel racing.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

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flynfrog
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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WhiteBlue wrote:
flynfrog wrote: so what will be the point of watching then?

a series that costs 100times more than IRL wiht steel suspension and some greenie gimmicks slap on to turn even slower lap times?
They can still decide to increase the allowed regen power in 2010 and feed that back without the funny push button. I hope they do that. I also hope that teams will not oppose KERS as a competitive advantage once they cannot get performance from the engine.

The original plan was to keep lap times constant. The teams can nail the FiA on that objective. I don't understand what difference you see between metal and composite suspension rods if it is same material for all. The geometry would be different and they could still use J-dampers or any other new system they would come up with.
F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motor racing. They haven't used steel since the 80s. F1 is one of the few industries pushing composites to there limits. Composites will be the next big step in more fuel effecint motor cars. You are the one pushing for more green race cars woudlnt it make sense to see how much weight we can cut out of them. Also there are FSAE teams with carbon suspension now surly F1 can afford something we put on FSAE cars.

This whole spec F1 thing is really starting to turn me off. The point we go to spec power outputs I think ill stop getting up at 3am to watch.

I say allow teams to use KERS if they want and open th engine rules back up v10 rules see if KERS can stand on its own (it cant) and lets watch racing

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WhiteBlue
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I remember metal suspension in 1994 when the Imola accident happened. Perhaps they did titanium at that time which would also be ok. I believe that they started composite around the turn of the millenium. It is a terrible waste of labour to recertify those things for every race. I cannot imagine that it is really significant in terms of weight saving. At least titanium you can use a whole season.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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flynfrog
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WhiteBlue wrote:I remember metal suspension in 1994 when the Imola accident happened. Perhaps they did titanium at that time which would also be ok. I believe that they started composite around the turn of the millenium. It is a terrible waste of labour to recertify those things for every race. I cannot imagine that it is really significant in terms of weight saving. At least titanium you can use a whole season.
So in your opinion anything not related to HERS KERS is a waste of labor?

They are race cars not something you go to the store to pick up groceries. Who cares if they need new bits every race the labor is minimal compared to packing the airplane to fly away to races. Maybe we should just do laps around the factory and time them :wtf:

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WhiteBlue
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Do you have an idea what they do with these things? As far as I know the life time of a suspension member is under two races. After one race they strip away the clear coating and flux the bloody thing. At that point probably a third already fails (no doubt due to the agressive ways you have to apply to remove the coating). A further bunch gets eliminated by small impacts that would not worry a titanium strut. These things are brittle as frozen choclate flakes.

In the end you get cost benefit relations like the wheel nuts. One team buys 1200 of those per season at 1000 pounds a piece. 1.2 million for nuts? :roll: :wtf:

If they put some money into increasing the efficiency of the combustion engine and find a way to gain 5% efficiency of fuel that would justify huge development budgets. carried over to road cars instantly a factor of millions applies t the saving for the car manufacturers. If I can have the same entertainment in races and have a lower bill at the pump I will support those who make that happen.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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flynfrog
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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WhiteBlue wrote:Do you have an idea what they do with these things? As far as I know the life time of a suspension member is under two races. After one race they strip away the clear coating and flux the bloody thing. At that point probably a third already fails (no doubt due to the agressive ways you have to apply to remove the coating). A further bunch gets eliminated by small impacts that would not worry a titanium strut. Thes things are brittle as frozen choclate flakes. In the end you get cost benefit relations like the wheel nuts. One team buys 1200 of those per season at 1000 pounds a piece. 1.2 million for nuts? :roll: :wtf:
Not sure what clear coating they are stripping off. I would assume they get UT and maybe flux. Do you have any idea how much more expensive machined Ti is than carbon

Why have a rule in the first place? If a team can save the money and apply it elsewhere let them they could use steel if it wasnt worth the time.