Le Mans 24 hours 2009

[RacingManiac]

I'm very curious how will Pescarolo 908 perform against the factory diesels. Is it the same spec as the factory cars?

They don't show more professionalism than Oreca or Pescarolo that invest in making their own chassis and in getting experienced and fast driver line-ups.

I rate the professionalism of Oreca or Pescarolo very high. Those would be the teams to cooperate with for any new manufacturers getting into LM.

Pescarolo's car I believe is last year's car, and they only get the car for this race, essentially help Peugeot running the car. How much testing time if at all they got with the car I don't know....

On the Peugeot front, I guess its kinda revert back to the Audi R8-era of front aerodynamic....the way I see it it kinda diverged when the 2003 Bentley showed up and sorta bring back some of the design cue of the late 93 Peugeot 905 Evo2 design. Audi R10 kinda ran with that along with the 908, and R15 is like the more extreme evolution of that type of concept(although its amazing how much the R15 shares its features with their DTM cars). This Peugeot update looks more like the pre-Bentley type of LMP car...albeit with the nose...

[vyselegend]

The route Peugeot went is surprising indeed, probably the intent is to reduce front generated drag (from the formers wishbones bodywork) while losing a bit of downforce from the diffuser (because of radiators feeding), which is comprehensible since they needed to shift the aero balance a bit rearward because of reduced rear wing.

The thing is, the nose mounting struts allways looked bad, but now more than ever they are totally out of place! The new front would make the car looks sleeker than before , if only they could get rid of those horrible pillars...

I agree with Dumrick and Racingmaniac about the Aston/Prodrive position in comparison to the to "real" manufacturers. When they uncovered the car's project earlier I was so seduced, but since then a lot of events have eroded my enthusiasm. I won't especially cheer for them. But I won't either cheer for any other manufacturer or team (well, maybe pescarollo).

There are so much drivers I'd love to see cross the line first, in so many teams!

Be it Mc Nish, Brabham, Panis, Verstappen, Barbosa, Bouillon, Dumas...

Actually I see no team or driver that I hope won't win, although like everyone else I'd be a slight bit frustrated if Audi wins it dominantly.
Like Ferrari days in F1 or Citroen's in WRC, Audi's dominance is kind of spoiling the fun.

But if they win through Mc Nish / Kristensen's pure genius again like last year I'll be happy!
Those two are The Big Boss in the place. I think maybe only Brabham and potentially Montagny are really in position to challenge them when it comes to agressiveness skills in the traffic and ability to put an authoritary decisive overtaking if needed.

I'm leaving thursday morning, so I won't be able to contribute feeding this thread but I promise to come back with lots of pics (vids maybe...) and impressions to share with you.

Everyone, have a great LM!

[dumrick]

On the technical side and at the risk of contradicting myself a bit, I think that now Aston is trying (maybe a bit late, since they started the season so lightly, given their driver choices).

They will be racing a new direct injection system on their cars (Wednesday and Thursday only on #009, in all cars at the race).
This technology is standard in most endurance engines and was a key factor for the Audi R8 dominance so, given the fact that it must not have been easy to adapt an existing production engine to this technology, some credit must be given to them.

Personal sidenotes:
- maybe they should start making technologically advanced and efficient engines for their road cars too;
- I would still love to see the V8 Turbo from the R8 used in a state-of-the-art chassis (like in an Oreca 01). I bet it would give a clearer view of the Diesel-Petrol equivalence, being it still an excellent endurance engine.

[RacingManiac]

They will be racing a new direct injection system on their cars (Wednesday and Thursday only on #009, in all cars at the race).
This technology is standard in most endurance engines and was a key factor for the Audi R8 dominance so, given the fact that it must not have been easy to adapt an existing production engine to this technology, some credit must be given to them.

Personal sidenotes:
- maybe they should start making technologically advanced and efficient engines for their road cars too;
- I would still love to see the V8 Turbo from the R8 used in a state-of-the-art chassis (like in an Oreca 01). I bet it would give a clearer view of the Diesel-Petrol equivalence, being it still an excellent endurance engine.

Seems risky, but I assume they have run this before(though the fact that the cars don't have this at the same time from the get go seems to say otherwise). I don't know how well they'll pull this off, consider AER for the longest time have tried to make theirs work for the P1 and P2 engine, and I don't think Mazda have successfully adopted this for their P2 engine. And the only other engine recently that have successfully used this was the RS Spyder, and that was a year coming. But I suppose they have nothing really to lose....

I also wonder often about the whereabout of the R8 motors. Knowing Audi they probably wouldn't being selling it to anyone serious. But that was a remarkable motor, even 8 years later since its debut. To think that R8 can do 14-15 laps at Le Mans on one tank back then, and pretty much demolished all comer and had zero engine failure in its entire life-time was amazing...

[RacingManiac]

Henri's Peugeot...2008 spec, but man, what paintjob(or vinyl, either way)
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/popup. ... 4&S=LEMANS

[modbaraban]

Peugeot lodges protest over ‘non-compliant’ Audi

At 10.35am today, Wednesday June 10, 2009, and in compliance with Article 29.2 of the specific regulations of the 2009 Le Mans 24 Hours, Team Peugeot Total lodged a protest with the Race Director and the President of the Sporting Stewards of the Le Mans 24 Hours concerning the entrant Audi and the non-compliance of the three Audi prototypes with the ACO’s 2009 technical regulations.

read the full thing at planetlemans.com

[dumrick]

Seems risky, but I assume they have run this before(though the fact that the cars don't have this at the same time from the get go seems to say otherwise).

George Howard-Chappell declared to Endurance-Info that they have run it succesfully in a test at Portimão and that its benefits concern more increased mileage than engine power. On a side note, Oreca's boss Hughes de Chaunac manifested its disapproval of this system being allowed to be run, not being used in GT. Let's recall Aston-Martin benefits from larger restritors than competitors with racing engines, because their engine is homologated in GT1. De Chaunac said something like Le Mans being like a world cup of football with referees from the Junior League.

Audi R15
Sebring/Le Mans comparison photos by SpeedTV's Marshall Pruett:

Rear wheel air exit


Air extraction from engine bay (change mandated by the ACO)


Scrutineering photos by Laurent Chauveau for Endurance-Info:

New turbo scoops, as required by the Audi's powertrain engineers


New wing endplates


New lateral front wheel bay air exit


New blanking plates (or downforce-generating wings, as per Peugeot's protest) masking the lower front wishbones, replacing the legality mesh that was previously used and that, with dirt accumulation made the aero balance of the Audi shift as the race progressed (the two elements visible above the Michelin logo)


Peugeot 908

According to Endurance-Info, the Peugeots will benefit from lower drag from the new front (that also shiftes the aero balance rearwards to compensate the new rear wing) and, despite the reduction in the restritor's diameter, more power than last year, what could mean better lap times than in 2008.

Photo credits to Laurent Chaveau/Endurance-Info

Close up of the flow diverter under the raised nose (notice how the lateral bulge a bit back on the side of the nose now seems to mess with the airflow)


Lola B06/80-"Aston Martin DBR2/1"

Photo credits to Laurent Chaveau/Endurance-Info

New lateral filling plate between the headlights and the wheel, just like used extensively in the last few years in all Lolas. Notice that the amount of the very drag-penalizing louvers hasn't been apparently reduced, unlike most competitors do.


Oreca 01-AIM

Photo credits to Laurent Chaveau/Endurance-Info

Newly shaped legality plates linking the front fenders to the chassis (carbon black part)


Pescarolo LMP1

Photo credits to Laurent Chaveau/Endurance-Info

New lower engine cover


Now, it's almost time to see this babies in action in the first practice session!

[RacingManiac]

The protest actually concerns both that new piece on the R15 and the cross piece where the Michelin sticker is.....
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... amics.html

good illustration above on the suspect parts....

Now from the wording of the rule it actually sounds like Peugeot may have a case, but not knowing how ACO initially approved it and how Audi explained it in the first place we won't know for sure....it'll probably drag on til the race is over and some sort of rule clarification is issued...

[zac510]

- I would still love to see the V8 Turbo from the R8 used in a state-of-the-art chassis (like in an Oreca 01). I bet it would give a clearer view of the Diesel-Petrol equivalence, being it still an excellent endurance engine.

The R8 engine ran in the back of a Lola chassis in 2007. I think the team was Swiss Spirit. It didn't do exceptionally well.

[RacingManiac]

Not a top flight car or a top flight team with the same level of drivers....

Thats the whole deal with this diesel/petrol thing though. The picture is so skewed that it looks like the diesels are great, but putting a diesel in privateer hand like Kolles with so-so drivers and they still get beaten easily by a competent outfit like Oreca or Pescarolo. And look at Audi's own example with the 2008 and 2009 comparison, the car in 2009 makes less power and have more aero restriction, yet around Sebring its still faster in 2009. So the engine layout and type is just a portion of the story. Until there is a top level petrol car with a equivelent level of development, you can't say truly say a diesel is definitively better than a petrol car, because it is diesel....

I'd bet the Acura will be a really fast car if it had R8's engine...if they can integrate it....

[zac510]

It's a 10 year old engine, disregarding the various improvements over the years. I don't think it would be better than Acura's engine.

I agree with you re the privateer diesel/privateer petrol being hard to compare. Maybe we need to forget the fuels and just look at the teams on their merits. The two with the biggest budgets are fastest, but Pescarolo are mixing it a bit in their Peugeot!

[modbaraban]

It's hard to see any point in that nosecone now. Apart from crash safety.

[RacingManiac]

It's a 10 year old engine, disregarding the various improvements over the years. I don't think it would be better than Acura's engine.

I agree with you re the privateer diesel/privateer petrol being hard to compare. Maybe we need to forget the fuels and just look at the teams on their merits. The two with the biggest budgets are fastest, but Pescarolo are mixing it a bit in their Peugeot!

Acura's engine is not direct injected, its an upsized version from their P2 motor(which is a development of their IRL motor), with much narrower torque band, with most likely less power once the Audi gets to run in the proper restrictor category, and I am going to venture a guess Acura is less economical as well. Compare the 4L Judd vs the R8 motor back in 2001 and the gas mileage difference is staggering considering R8 can run ~1-2 laps longer per tank, and Acura's engine is philosophically similar to the Judd with same displacement, normally aspirated, and 2 less cylinder.

Despite the age, I think there has not been a petrol engine that was better since the R8 motor.....With only thing that I can think of thats comparable in level of sophistication being the Porsche LMP engine in direct injection trim...

[dumrick]

Despite the age, I think there has not been a petrol engine that was better since the R8 motor.....With only thing that I can think of thats comparable in level of sophistication being the Porsche LMP engine in direct injection trim...

Agreed. Is there any other engine conceived for LMP1 with turbos AND direct injection? I thought the AER P32T V8 had it, but apparently they never ran the direct injection system.

I think it was AER that demonstrated the advantage a turbo engine had in a restricted air intake formula like Le Mans racing (it's obviously in their interest to state it, since it's the kind of engines they produce), resulting in largely broader powerbands. However, it seems the latest regulations concerning fuel spec have also placed some problems to this kind of engine (resulting in the allowance of larger restritors to the Mazdas, for instance, to make it possible for them to unstress the engine a bit).

[RacingManiac]

AER had always been a bit of a grenade since it was conceived in its original trim on the MG Lola EX257s....a 2L 4 banger turbo that makes over 500bhp in a 675kg Lola was a proper quick car. But it was so highly strung out that it broke all the time....I think it really hit its stride maybe 3 years later. At which point R8 was somewhat tied down which I think made it easier. Their V8 was a bit less finicky but still seems to be bothered with niggling issue. At the same time Judd had been making their V10 in bigger displacement variety that made it an excellent endurance engine. But still no engine really seem to be on the Audi's 3.6L V8 Twin Turbo's level in that it was fugal, reliable, powerful and drivable....

I think restricter Turbo has always been the weapon of choice for manufacturers though...Porsche's 911 GT1, Toyota GT-One, Audi...they are probably a bit more complicated to develop with multitude of plumbing and heat management in the confine space of a sports car...AER was brave I think to take it on as their layout of choice, but as a engine supplier it makes it hard since it made it more difficult to put in different chassis....most manufacturer's cars are bespoke and thus not have to worry about different chassis packaging...