What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
autogyro
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Re: What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

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High performance CVT or TVT transmissions, use far to much power to operate (hold pressure on), the cones or toroidal disks to ever be competitive. It is also like driving a banana in a bowl of jelly, try an old Daf variomatic or a CVT Fiesta.
The only applications for them is in low power applications and instrumentation.
They have also been superseded in truck, bus and other heavy industry use by electrically driven flywheel storage as a direct result of Kers development.

Paddle shifting is simply the result of ergonomic conclusions.
The electronic operating systems for F1 gearboxes can be controlled by any suitable button or lever, or made fully automatic. The Lotus in the 70,s used a gear lever button similar to the even earlier overdrive button found on many British cars of the 50's and 60's. It was the first in basic operating principle.
I have a letter from Lotus (Tony Rudd)at this time offering me a position at Lotus to develop a method to link the electronic gear shifts to engine management for fine control over gear changes. A follow up to my developments of the fully and semi automatic mini racer I had built previously and won races with.

xxChrisxx
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Re: What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

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autogyro wrote:High performance CVT or TVT transmissions, use far to much power to operate (hold pressure on), the cones or toroidal disks to ever be competitive. It is also like driving a banana in a bowl of jelly, try an old Daf variomatic or a CVT Fiesta.
The only applications for them is in low power applications and instrumentation.
They have also been superseded in truck, bus and other heavy industry use by electrically driven flywheel storage as a direct result of Kers development.
Does it matter how much power they use if they make a car lap quicker? Lap times are the ultimate goal, and everything is a compromise. In this case the box cost a bit of power. Just like active ride, that cost power too, but gave back more than it cost.

You say they are only for low power. Williams had one testing, and the car was lapping faster than with the semi auto gearbox. That is definative proof that CVT's have the potential to be competetive.

EDIT: I've driven the Jazz CVT-7, it's pretty bloody good acutally. The 'fake' gearchanges are a bit clunky when you use the manual buttons, but thats becuase they try to fit it in to when the power requirement drops. The full auto CVT mode offers quite a nice drive. (A bit odd not to hear the engine note change though)
autogyro wrote: I have a letter from Lotus (Tony Rudd)at this time offering me a position at Lotus to develop a method to link the electronic gear shifts to engine management for fine control over gear changes. A follow up to my developments of the fully and semi automatic mini racer I had built previously and won races with.
Find it, scan it, post it.
Offer proof and I gaurantee you, people will stop the flaming.
Last edited by xxChrisxx on 16 Nov 2009, 16:42, edited 5 times in total.

xpensive
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Re: What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

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autogyro wrote:I have a letter from Lotus (Tony Rudd)at this time offering me a position at Lotus to develop a method to link the electronic gear shifts to engine management for fine control over gear changes. A follow up to my developments of the fully and semi automatic mini racer I had built previously and won races with.
Wikipedia on the subject:

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RH1300S
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Re: What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

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Wandered OT again.............. [-X

Yes, the Ferrari 640 was effectively the first F1 car to run with a paddle operated mechanism (I didn't know about the 639 BTW - thanks for the info.)

Interesting to hear the Lotus transmission being discussed.

It actually goes to prove that since the very beginning people have been attampting to find ways of changing gears that didn't involve stirring a stick around.

I remember reading about Colin Chapman's attempt at a push button design, it was said that at the time he was beginning to realise that Left Foot Braking could unlock lap-time, the push button system was there to let the driver LFB better (and yes, I know you can change without a clutch in a conventional 'box).

BTW - I use Chapman's name in the full knowledge that he often wasn't actually the person who did the work - BUT to my mind he had the vision to know which bits gave him performance and then to drive the idea as hard as possible.

Let's add another name to the thread posters data bank of information.....Jim Hall. I believe that Jim Hall also tried semi automatic type transmissions with his Chaparral cars. In fact there is a little something in my mind that reminds me that Jim Hall's reasons for his transmission and Colin Chapman's were not entirely unconnected.

Jim Hall's car was a two pedal device and I think he was ahead of Chapman in employing the idea of LFB - we are heading back to the 1960's now...

xpensive
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Re: What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

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Jim Halls Chaparrals were fully automatic. [-X :lol:
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xxChrisxx
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Re: What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

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xpensive wrote:Jim Halls Chaparrals were fully automatic. [-X :lol:
Can left foot brake much easier then! I didn't realise they were automatics.

xpensive
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Re: What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

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Some of them anyway, but you were also supposed to manouver the giant rear wing with your left foot,
why driving was a bit complicated just the same.
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RH1300S
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Re: What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

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Thanks - xpensive. My mistake, I should have checked my research.

P.S. - for the pedants ( :wink: ) I think that Chapman's car had a normal gearbox, but the clutch was actuated by moving the gear lever.

P.P.S - I can't find anything, but wasn't he working along similar lines when persuing his 'queerbox'?

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flynfrog
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Re: What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

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Image

The capsule car had a shift lever that actuated the clutch

xpensive
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Re: What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

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RH1300S wrote: P.S. - for the pedants ( :wink: ) I think that Chapman's car had a normal gearbox, but the clutch was actuated by moving the gear lever.

P.P.S - I can't find anything, but wasn't he working along similar lines when persuing his 'queerbox'?
The Lotus 76 of 1974 had a perfectly normal gearbox and lever, only said lever had a button which operated the clutch electrically. Furthermore, the car had no less than four pedals, from left to right; Brake-coupling-brake-accellerator, why it could be driven with left-foot braking but also in a conventional fashion. Jacky Ickx hated it, or so I recall.
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autogyro
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Re: What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

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xpensive wrote:
RH1300S wrote: P.S. - for the pedants ( :wink: ) I think that Chapman's car had a normal gearbox, but the clutch was actuated by moving the gear lever.

P.P.S - I can't find anything, but wasn't he working along similar lines when persuing his 'queerbox'?
The Lotus 76 of 1974 had a perfectly normal gearbox and lever, only said lever had a button which operated the clutch electrically. Furthermore, the car had no less than four pedals, from left to right; Brake-coupling-brake-accellerator, why it could be driven with left-foot braking but also in a conventional fashion. Jacky Ickx hated it, or so I recall.
It was built before the realization that changing gear did not have to be a manual operation to appease the drivers ego, as is still the case on motor bikes with silly foot levers.
Clarkson is one of the biggest of these macho goon throw backs to Victorian technology.

xpensive
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Re: What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

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With all due respect autogyro, please refrain from commenting my posts unless you have a constructive contribution.

Your endless tirades about yourself being the misunderstood genius are getting boring as well as rather predictable.
Last edited by xpensive on 17 Nov 2009, 15:50, edited 1 time in total.
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RH1300S
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Re: What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

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Since when did Colin Chapman do anything to appease a driver's ego? The way I read that was he saw an area of performance benefit and given the technology he was working with came up with what could have been a practical solution. The fact that it vanished pretty soon tells me that for whatever reason the cars did not go any faster (or failed to do so reliably) - so he went back to what worked well enough.

There isn't a huge difference in flicking a bike gear-lever with your toe and flicking a paddle with your fingers - I don't see where ego comes into that one. In fact in an attempt to keep this slightly on-topic, if adding paddles was mainly driven by aero packaging requirements, then it made sense to use a drivers fingers as his feet were already fairly busy - on a motorbike the toe is less busy than the fingers so it makes some sense to keep it working the gears (direct mechanical linkage or not).

As for Clarkson - he is perfectly able to admit when a paddle type gearchange works well. As much as anything he was pointing out that when not executed well such a thing is not much more use than a toy/gimmick for a road based car. For road cars we can judge things differently to competition cars so he is quite right to question the point where a paddle gearchange becomes viable or not. No doubt we will all have paddle/button changes in the not too distant future - but not yet. In fact we will have paddles with layshaft gearboxes - despite the fact that these things might absorb a few percent more power, the manufacturers know how to build them reliably and fairly cheaply - and I bet that bigger efficiency gains will come from addressing road car aero and weight before ekeing out a few percent in the drivetrain.

Heading OT again............soz

autogyro
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Re: What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

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RH1300S wrote:Since when did Colin Chapman do anything to appease a driver's ego? The way I read that was he saw an area of performance benefit and given the technology he was working with came up with what could have been a practical solution. The fact that it vanished pretty soon tells me that for whatever reason the cars did not go any faster (or failed to do so reliably) - so he went back to what worked well enough.

There isn't a huge difference in flicking a bike gear-lever with your toe and flicking a paddle with your fingers - I don't see where ego comes into that one. In fact in an attempt to keep this slightly on-topic, if adding paddles was mainly driven by aero packaging requirements, then it made sense to use a drivers fingers as his feet were already fairly busy - on a motorbike the toe is less busy than the fingers so it makes some sense to keep it working the gears (direct mechanical linkage or not).



As for Clarkson - he is perfectly able to admit when a paddle type gearchange works well. As much as anything he was pointing out that when not executed well such a thing is not much more use than a toy/gimmick for a road based car. For road cars we can judge things differently to competition cars so he is quite right to question the point where a paddle gearchange becomes viable or not. No doubt we will all have paddle/button changes in the not too distant future - but not yet. In fact we will have paddles with layshaft gearboxes - despite the fact that these things might absorb a few percent more power, the manufacturers know how to build them reliably and fairly cheaply - and I bet that bigger efficiency gains will come from addressing road car aero and weight before ekeing out a few percent in the drivetrain.

Heading OT again............soz
Flicking a foot lever with your toe, forces the brake levers to be placed, one on the foot and the other on a hand lever. The need for a conventional clutch forces the need for yet another lever on the handle bars.
With a proper push button gearbox, both front and rear brakes can be on the foot pedals. There would be no need at all for hand levers and there would be an upshift button on the left thumb and a down shift button on the right thumb.
Proper 21st century ergonomic controls that we had available in 1976.
Good for at least 3 seconds a lap and better reliability.
Shame about macho bikers and the Japanese.
No need at all for paddle shift on road cars, buttons do the job fine, on full auto, or semi auto, no matter what the geartrain.
The paddles are just a marketing gimmick for the macho.
Of course the regulations and the computer game market has filled up the F1 steering wheel with buttons already, so there is no room left for gearshift buttons. In any case most drivers are to thick to be delicate enough just to use a button, they have to milk a cow so to speak just for the 'feel'.

RH1300S
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Re: What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

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Very OT - but a quick reply.

Yes you are right in your summary, but I don't agree with your view that it would be worth 3 secs a lap or your suggestion that two brake pedals is better.....

Yes - the layout of a motorbike has very much developed due to the positions of the major bits, so may not have been driven by ideal ergonomics.

All I would say is....as it happens I KNOW that I can be more sensitive braking with my fingers than with my foot. When you ride a bike hard, your feet are working the footpegs all the time and a sensitive application of the brake is quite tricky. In fact operating the gear-lever can be tricky TBH - think fully leant over trying to get a toe under it (so, we agree that's not so good ;)) - BUT racers tend to use an upside down shift pattern, meaning when you are most likely to change gear when leant over you tap your foot down to change up, so a drop of commonsense deals with most of that problem.

So, by happy accident the bike layout isn't all that bad after all.

I certainly don't see where macho bikers are holding it back and why 'shame about the Japanese'? - Admittedly they don't keep reinventing the wheel, but they do some pretty clever stuff and I am more than happy with their output. Maybe they are just good at seeing the wood for the trees??