F1 reverse line up

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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Behold my fellow ingrates,

Ultra hard tyres be the answer we so desprately seek. And I dont mean the "hard" compound bridgestones we currently endure.
Im talking of the rubber we get on our cars, that remains solid without feeling the need to shed "marbles" every time the driver dabs brake or throttle.
The cars would be sliding around more, and we would see drivers correcting lines with the accelerator pedal for a change!

I will leave you with this final thought for the night. When it rains and we have an exciting race, what are the common denominators?
Same aero(possibly more due higher downforce wet setups)
Same drivers
Same engines
Same cirquits

But crucially the tyre grip levels have changed! I thank Frank Durney for opening my eyes :idea: night all :D
Yep. You'd get no / much less marbles and, crucially, you'd get much less of a rubbered-in racing line. Thus cars could drive around the outside of another, otherwise slower, car.

The rain in China demonstrated this quite nicely (because wet is the same as hard tyres and no marbles) where we saw Hamilton (and others) overtaking around the outside of a couple of corners. Rubens trying to go around Hamilton in T1/2 was pretty impressive!
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

jlspx
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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"If you line the cars up with the fastest at the front and the slowest at the back, why should there be any overtaking?"

Patrick Head
Co-owner Williams team

toto1041
toto1041
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Joined: 21 Jul 2009, 16:02

Re: F1 reverse line up

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Just_a_fan wrote: You'd get no / much less marbles and, crucially, you'd get much less of a rubbered-in racing line. Thus cars could drive around the outside of another, otherwise slower, car.

F1 safety and technical regs should thus ban tyres that shed marbles. I like it. Also agree with the reverse championship order starting grid.

readonly
readonly
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Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 15:20

Re: F1 reverse line up

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feynman wrote:Well, who said the fastest cars were supposed to be at the front. If cars were as wide as moto-cross bikes, they'd all line-up beside each other, but they're not. Just 'cos historically they started fastest-first, why exactly is that 'correct'?

Here's the thing, for decades now we have had a revolving door of regulation and rule changes as the administration try to slow down the cars and keep the show interesting, and every winter, the engineers show how much smarter they are than everyone else, and claw back eveything that was taken away, and more.

But those claw-backs come at a cost, the cars are highly evolved and finely tuned for ultimate performance, and barely drivable when following another. That's the slightly unsatisfactory dynamic we've ended up with.

The solution is to acknowledge that ruthlessly efficient Darwinian process, and game-change the environment such that instead of constantly fighting against the engineers (and always losing), you switch it tai-chi style, and use their weight to help you.

Cancelling qualifying and lining up on the grid in reverse championship-order is that sort of switch. (The only reason we cling to qualifying is that some weekends it's the only guaranteed bit of excitement or tension, but that's not a reason to keep it, it's a reason to improve the racing).

Now you bring the whole weight of the research and development effort into engineering cars that can hustle, that are good in a crowd. That now actually perform at their best when following another. You've shifted the whole emphasis of car design. You'll have cars designed to mix-it, and built to withstand a reasonable bit of ol'fashioned rough and tumble.

All those supposed intractable aero-problems will evaporate as the real smart guys now spend their time finding ways to get past a grid full of cars, instead of burning millions to engineer nano-vortices to slow down the car behind.


I'll be honest, I can't say I am 100% convinced, but I am pretty close to it. There could be a weird flip-flopping in the championship order for the first coupla races ... Smaller teams start at front, gets points, get pinged to the back, big teams then score points, get pinged back. Might be a weird becalmed middle of the grid ... so that would need some thinking about, but I am fairly confident it would all resolve itself quickly.

Yeah I know it's a tough sell, but I figure you can keep your head in the sand and then act all surprised and disappointed when the fastest cars at the front keep disappearing and following each other home, when you spent all winter and all weekend designing and sorting them to do just that, or you can change the environment.

Given the choice: a season of Barcelona parades, or a season of Suzuka 05, whaddya prefer?
Great to see some people think like this. I guess people need to see how any technical rule can't solve the problem. Everybody has many ideas that they think would improve overtaking, and they may be right to some extent, but none of them can solve the true problem.

The true problem is that the competition system is a non-confrontational system. First, competitors are impelled to build a faster car and drive it faster on an empty track. this decides a great part of the overall result of the competition. NO direct confrontation is promoted AT ALL. During the race there is a chance of confromtation but, since it is allowed to have a faster car than the rest, the system tends to cancel the chances of having confrontation.

The reverse line-up according to current WDC standings is a system thought to promote confrontation. Perhaps the use of the word "reverse" is what takes people to think that the system is up side down and that goes against the natural way of thinking. If people could change the name of the system to "Confrontational" starting system, or "overtaking" system or some other name without the R word, it might get much more acceptance.

Under this system there is only one way to be REALLY successful: Overtake more drivers and allow less drivers to overtake you. Forget about sitting in a fast car, be the #1 driver in your team and get bored until you win. You will have to overtake ALL slower drivers and defend from ALL faster drivers.

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: F1 reverse line up

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I raced that way for a number of years on the short ovals in hot rods.
It works very well and has for years.

andrew
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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Reduce downforce, hard tyres and more mechanical grip. There, I fixed F1!!

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machin
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Joined: 25 Nov 2008, 14:45

Re: F1 reverse line up

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There, I fixed F1!!
No you haven't.... read "Readonly"'s post again, its only two up from yours.... :lol:
COMPETITION CAR ENGINEERING -Home of VIRTUAL STOPWATCH

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Pandamasque
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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@ readonly & feynman so the one who builds the fastest (in clean air) car and does the overtaking in the pitlane wins! :mrgreen:

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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"retarded drivers"?

I'm I the only one that thinks this is pathetic even in a "jokey" way? :shock:
More could have been done.
David Purley

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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+1 [-X

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ISLAMATRON
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Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 18:29

Re: F1 reverse line up

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almost as pathetic as reverse grids

nipo
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Location: Hong Kong

Re: F1 reverse line up

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+1 to feymann's idea!

Bernie wouldn't like it though cos he needs to generate more income from the quali session. Can the plan be modified to suit this need as well? Maybe a qualifying session where some sort of advantage is given to the high qualifiers, or some sort of penalties given to the low qualifiers, or both?

Anyway it is a lovely idea - much better than reversing the grid from qualifying.

feynman
feynman
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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Yes nipo, Saturday afternoon is tricky.

I don't think CVC and their eye-watering debt would be all that keen to be offering a refund to broadcasters for roughly 30% less sellable track-time. Nor would the circuits, with their throats being cut by FOM as it is, welcome trying to flog tickets for a short two-day weekend (Saturday practice/Sunday race). The mechanics would probably dig it though.

Some sort of sprint race? I think it detracts too much from the main-event, the climax of the weekend, the uniqueness. It's *THE* Grand Prix, not a Grand Prix, oh and a Petit Prix the day before. (Although it would be fun to stick them all in available GP2 cars, Porsches or Aussie V8s, for a cash prize, see who's really all that).


OK, If we are using championship points to decide your starting grid position, then we still run the current knockout qualifying (which, when the laptimes get a bit closer again, is definitely good TV value).
But use this classification to instead give 23 (for pole) down to 0 (last place) "delta points"

These aren't real points, they don't count for anything except being applied as a temporary modifier, subtracted from the driver's championship points ... which means hot one-lappers can use their raw pace to try and move themselves a bit further up the grid.

FOM TV graphics can display the Q times as usual, so we don't lose that, but the other side of the screen can show in real-time what this all means for the grid.

Two drivers with roughly the same championship points, if one significantly outqualifies the other, he would "reduce" his points, meaning he moves himself a bit further up the reverse-grid, a little bit nearer the real points that get handed-out on Sunday.
Close-run squabbles up and down the field all still have something very real worth fighting for, so Saturday qualifying should still be exciting and still mean something (and getting the rain-radar wrong would still have serious consequences, as you remain nailed to the very last row).

Also neatly solves the problem of who lines up where for the first race of a new season.

DaveKillens
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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I would suggest that tire specs be changed so that they cannot generate marbles, thus allowing an alternate line. Secondly, remove the blue flag rule, and allow anyone and everyone to race each other.

That way, when the front runner comes up against the back-markers, he has to engineer a pass, and not rely on the marshalls showing blue flags.

Despite my occasional desire for rain to mix things up and generate excitement, I also believe that in the end, the best driver in the best car should be the winner.

I used to watch NASCAR a lot, but turned my back on them when they strayed too far towards entertaining the fans and introduced weird rules and an even weirder points system for determining the champ.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.