Hamilton vs Button

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Aced
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Re: Hamilton vs Button

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ringo wrote:He only fears hamilton, and began to relax when he heard button was behind.
Should have seen the look on Button's face. :lol:
Yes well, that was definitely the case yesterday... :lol:
enkidu wrote:Still won the race though, luck was on his side yes...
Button wasn't that lucky at all, 6 pit stops and falling to 21st(last) 30 laps before the race was over.
beelsebob wrote:I find it very disappointing that we didn't see the sensational race that I'm sure Hamilton would have driven.
Yes, that's a shame. Well, at least now Vettel knows he's vulnerable. And that mistake is surely gonna have some kind of pressure on him the next race when there's someone in his mirrors. But I just hope Hamilton learns to play it smart.

speedsense
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Re: Hamilton vs Button

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When you think about "team drivers" and their relationship in respect to the"team"

Alonso/Massa ?
Vettel/ Webber?
Nico/Schumacher?
Heidfield/Petrov?
Barrichello/Maldonado?

The matchup that fits the best?

Hamilton/Button....shades above the rest when it comes to the meaning of team.
"Driving a car as fast as possible (in a race) is all about maintaining the highest possible acceleration level in the appropriate direction." Peter Wright,Techical Director, Team Lotus

marcush.
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Re: Hamilton vs Button

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instead of getting the last rites it seems Button is really the ideal complement to Hamilton and has carved the perfect niche for him,Hamilton and the team in his time with Mclaren.The one little downside to it seems to be that Hamilton seems not to improve for some time now. maybe he needs to relax to be better.

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Re: Hamilton vs Button

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bergzy wrote:button is a smoother driver than hamilton and also more conservative and calculating. button is easy on the tires (as is webber) and easy on his car. is this enough to win another wdc? no in my opinion. you need a bit of crazy to win the wdc. button won his wdc really in the early season with brawns ingenious double diffuser design. when everyone caught up with technology...button struggled.

hamilton is a go for your guts driver. all or none. it is both beneficial and detrimental at the same time. in his rookie season, he was so heavily heavily favored by the marshall's (my opinion) that any horrific behavior or track incident was blindly overlooked. i do not recall or have ever witnessed another car and driver being craned back onto the track to continue racing...which of course happened with hamilton.

people will recall that hamilton only won by one point...on the last urn of the last race of the season. true for kimi as well.

so, is hamilton a phenomenal driver? no, imo. he is an excellent driver.
Very good post. I agree completely. I said last year that Button might make Hamilton a better driver because he might teach Hamilton that it takes more than pure speed and agressiveness to win; you can also win by driving smartly and conserving your car and tires (see Phil Hill, Nicki Lauda, and other WDCs). I'm not sure Hamilton is yet mature enough to learn.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

vall
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Re: Hamilton vs Button

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marcush. wrote:instead of getting the last rites it seems Button is really the ideal complement to Hamilton and has carved the perfect niche for him,Hamilton and the team in his time with Mclaren.The one little downside to it seems to be that Hamilton seems not to improve for some time now. maybe he needs to relax to be better.
and don't expect him to improve much. When you start already at very high level, your improvement curve cannot be not that steep. Look at Hakinen and Schu far example. They improved a lot throughout their careers, but when they started they were not at the lever Ham was in 2007. Schu for example crashed a lot, incl. the infamous Hill accident in 1994, whenb Schu cracked under pressure.

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Re: Hamilton vs Button

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Button had a good drive, was unlucky in some cases, but if Heidfeld and Vettel hadn't crashed themselves out Button wouldn't have won that easily.

I like Hamilton's method. Kill first ask Questions later. The more cars you pass at the beginning of the race you get an exponentially better chance of winning. This can easily be proven in mathematics. Nipping it in the bud in layman's terms - A very good tactic.

Kill the dragon before it hatches.
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Re: Hamilton vs Button

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If Lewis hadn't crashed he would have finished the race. If Mark Webber had hit the wall, Schumacher would have been on the podium. If Kubica hadn't gone rallying, he would have been racing this season.

If we stop making these pointless statements, we can realise the truth.

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Re: Hamilton vs Button

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I am with you. But you missed one important point. Lewis crash was unavoidable once he legitimately went for the overtake on Button. So IF Button saw him - no crash.

But ignoring If's and But's, Button has more points as we speak. It won't be long before normal service resumes because Valencia is not a Button track.
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sAx
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Re: Hamilton vs Button

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bergzy wrote:button is a smoother driver than hamilton and also more conservative and calculating. button is easy on the tires (as is webber) and easy on his car. is this enough to win another wdc? no in my opinion. you need a bit of crazy to win the wdc. button won his wdc really in the early season with brawns ingenious double diffuser design. when everyone caught up with technology...button struggled.
...
If not a myth certainly becoming an urban legend. If we recall Melbourne last year, JB pitted early because in his words he had destroyed his rear tyres. Paddy Lowe also acknowledged this last year too, so maybe we should recognise the extent to which myth becomes legend. Where I concede in his favour though is that JB knows which battles to fight and those which he can count on as being lost. He (JB) received criticism for not getting a better result in Monaco from the pace that McLaren had, however the podium result ensured that he placed WDC points in the bag.

LH on the other hand believes all instances are recoverable and will not admit defeat until the last bend of the last lap (in karts as in his WDC year). Loathe him or like him (for me only Alonso comes close), his approach is infectious and is one of the main reasons why F1 has recovered its' excitement. This is not a criticism of either, just an acknowledgment that they are wired differently on what constitutes the wining mentality. It is the points that make a WDC prize and I reluctantly would have to accept that JB's % approach (calculating as you put it), is more likely to reap dividends over a championship season than LH's all action approach up to the final whistle.

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alelanza
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Re: Hamilton vs Button

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enkidu wrote:
Say that to another road user when you have a little scrape next time your driving... "Sorry mate thats hardly smashing your car up, I only had mild understeer into your car." :lol:
How's that relevant to a racing discussion? or would you also like drivers to overtake only on the left lane? or maybe right lane depending on where they're from....

That being said, as much as I am a Hamilton fan, clearly he's in bad shape at the moment. Hopefully he can learn more from Button.
Alejandro L.

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Re: Hamilton vs Button

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[...]
Last edited by Steven on 18 Jun 2011, 19:01, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: More Hamilton ranting. Unneeded
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Re: Hamilton vs Button

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Jb is a great driver...he does'n' allow setbacks or bad luck to distrupt his driving methods negatively, he seems to thrive on it. Lesser drivers tend to allow a certain amount of desperation or panic creep in and tend to overdo it. He keeps things under conyrol and has the ability to make rational decisions under pressure..... 8)
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lebesset
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Re: Hamilton vs Button

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unless sticking to the racing line is changing lane , button didn't change lane , he followed the same route as he had on the other laps , just like the other drivers

why did hamilton expect button to pull off the racing line to let him through ?...I suspect the truth is that he misjudged the speed at which he was catching button

button was entitled to take his line as long as he had his nose in front

don't forget this isn't the first time this sort of thing happened this season ...last time button pulled off his line to avoid an accident with his teammate when he was entitled to shut the door ...and was widely criticised for it to comments of number 2 driver

I often see hamilton as being unfairly treated because he attacks ....look at when schu overtook him at the hairpin at monaco ...he gave schu room ; and when he overtook schu at st devote , schu gave him room ; that's as it should be when the other driver is up the inside ; but this time he wasn't up the inside so I see him as being lucky to get away with it , just as alonso was lucky to get away with his collision with button ...button had the inside line and his nose in front ...for alonso to brake too late and shut the door was pathetic in my view , schu won a lot of races because the other drivers knew he would do just that , which is why I have never been a schu fan ; but at least alonso got his just deserts , just as hamilton did on this occassion
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gridwalker
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Re: Hamilton vs Button

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Traction wrote:Jb is a great driver...he does'n' allow setbacks or bad luck to distrupt his driving methods negatively, he seems to thrive on it. Lesser drivers tend to allow a certain amount of desperation or panic creep in and tend to overdo it. He keeps things under conyrol and has the ability to make rational decisions under pressure..... 8)
I think this is because after the adulation and attention he received in the UK media following his first win (becoming F1's leading Brit), his career went on a nosedive that left him looking very glum indeed.

After everything he went through during the Earth Dreams debacle, any minor setback that he experiences will be trivial by comparison.

Hamilton has never had to work through an extended lull like that, which will make every dip in performance seem exaggerated from his perspective.

In this sense, Button's career path will make him a wiser and more mature pilot.

NOTE : I'm not saying that Hamilton is immature (as some people will inevitably infer) just that Button will have the benefit of greater experience
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."

DaveKillens
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Re: Hamilton vs Button

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Are some people still dragging the old "Button drove Hamilton into the wall" argument when the steward's report tells it all?
After reviewing the data from the accident the stewards gave a three-point explanation of why the collision was neither drivers' fault.

"1) Exiting Turn 13 there was a legitimate overtaking opportunity for Lewis Hamilton as his speed was greater than Jensen Button's.

"2) Both drivers took lines substantially similar to many of the other drivers, and did not move as far to the left as the preceding driver, Michael Schumacher. At the moment after Hamilton moved to the left to pass, Button looked into his mirror. It appears from the position of Hamilton at that moment [and is confirmed by the drivers] that Button was unlikely to have seen Hamilton.

"3) At the point of contact Button had not yet moved as far to the left of the track as he had on the previous lap, or that Schumacher had on that lap. The Stewards have concluded that it was reasonable for Hamilton to believe that Button would have seen him and that he could have made the passing manoeuvre. Further, the Stewards have concluded that it is reasonable to believe that Button was not aware of Hamilton's position to his left. Therefore, the Stewards decide that this was a "racing incident" and have taken no further action."
The stewards not only examined who drove where, but also what they were doing the previous laps. In fact, Button drove further to the left on the preceding lap, which really raises serious questions. Hamilton was following, must have observed his teammate's lines, yet drove into a space he should have known had closed the lap before, on the hope his teammate would see him through the haze of rain and spray and avoid him.

So let's see, a comprehensive and much more complete examination of the facts led the stewards to decide it was a racing accident, Hamilton has himself personally admitted guilt, and yet some still maintain that Hamilton was entirely guilt-free when the facts indicate otherwise.

Maybe that's why "fan" is the beginning of the word "fanaticism"
Fanaticism is a belief or behavior involving uncritical zeal, particularly for an extreme religious or political cause or in some cases sports, or with an obsessive enthusiasm for a pastime or hobby. Philosopher George Santayana defines fanaticism as "redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim"; according to Winston Churchill, "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject". By either description the fanatic displays very strict standards and little tolerance for contrary ideas or opinions.

In his book Crazy Talk, Stupid Talk, Neil Postman states that "the key to all fanatical beliefs is that they are self-confirming....(some beliefs are) fanatical not because they are 'false', but because they are expressed in such a way that they can never be shown to be false."

The behavior of a fan with overwhelming enthusiasm for a given subject is differentiated from the behavior of a fanatic by the fanatic's violation of prevailing social norms. Though the fan's behavior may be judged as odd or eccentric, it does not violate such norms. A fanatic differs from a crank, in that a crank is defined as a person who holds a position or opinion which is so far from the norm as to appear ludicrous and/or probably wrong, such as a belief in a Flat Earth. In contrast, the subject of the fanatic's obsession may be "normal", such as an interest in religion or politics, except that the scale of the person's involvement, devotion, or obsession with the activity or cause is abnormal or disproportionate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanaticism
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