HALO Approved for 2018

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Formula Wrong
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by Formula Wrong » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:54 am

NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:19 pm
If the car ends up like Perez in Budapest , the side he escaped from would have had a Halo bar running through the middle of it!
Wasn't that exactly the scenario they showed in their presentation last year that a driver can get out with the Halo? Car ending up upside down, slightly on its sidee?
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Manoah2u
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by Manoah2u » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:17 am

Formula Wrong wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:54 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:19 pm
If the car ends up like Perez in Budapest , the side he escaped from would have had a Halo bar running through the middle of it!
Wasn't that exactly the scenario they showed in their presentation last year that a driver can get out with the Halo? Car ending up upside down, slightly on its sidee?
Yes, but it was leaning in opposite direction, with the exit point towards the barriers, into which the renault was actually landed/shoved into, so there was no way to comfortably or realistically exit.

It is a thing though to concider, the fire danger. it's so funny how much people were screaming about there have been no fires, but you just saw exactly happening that; a fire. given, it wasn't a full blaze thank god, but it shows how easily it can happen in an accident.

offcourse, the marshalls were there pretty fast and it was out in just a moment, but again, what if this turned into something much bigger? definately a thing to think about.

glad though it ended all with just a little rollercoaster and nothing harmed physically. it was pretty scary.
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by Manoah2u » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:20 am

NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:44 pm
Its the FIA . Thought and rehearsals arent likely. They spend their days making videos of how easy it is to get out of a car when upside down, a car with no wheels so the car could roll over and leave space to get out.
I'm glad all those that told me getting out would be easy are now proven wrong.
this 100%.

BTW, i personally found it extremely but extremely suspicious, that when we got the onboard shots of hulkenberg, that before the car actually flipped over, they cut away and never after shown the onboard shots. were they hiding something there in regards to escaping? i don't think the camera survived the rollarcoaster ride anyway, but i found it too odd that they cut to exactly that shot and then right before contact, they cut away.

or am i missing actual full footage?
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by Cannonballer » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:22 am

Manoah2u wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:20 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:44 pm
Its the FIA . Thought and rehearsals arent likely. They spend their days making videos of how easy it is to get out of a car when upside down, a car with no wheels so the car could roll over and leave space to get out.
I'm glad all those that told me getting out would be easy are now proven wrong.
this 100%.

BTW, i personally found it extremely but extremely suspicious, that when we got the onboard shots of hulkenberg, that before the car actually flipped over, they cut away and never after shown the onboard shots. were they hiding something there in regards to escaping? i don't think the camera survived the rollarcoaster ride anyway, but i found it too odd that they cut to exactly that shot and then right before contact, they cut away.

or am i missing actual full footage?
I just watched the onboard footage from Hulkenberg's car on F1TV. It is odd, the video feed goes out almost immediately after the initial contact with Grosjean.
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zac510
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by zac510 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:36 am

Is it really necessary to have speedy exit times in series like F1, F2, FE where there are half a dozen marshals at every corner to put out fires and full course safety cars to neutralise the circuit? If the driver is injured then he can't self-extract anyway, the medical car needs to attend and at that time marshals can work.

Of course at some club or national meeting where there are 1/3 the amount of marshals it would be different.

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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by NathanOlder » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:45 am

Formula Wrong wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:54 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:19 pm
If the car ends up like Perez in Budapest , the side he escaped from would have had a Halo bar running through the middle of it!
Wasn't that exactly the scenario they showed in their presentation last year that a driver can get out with the Halo? Car ending up upside down, slightly on its sidee?
Again, that video the car has no wheels, no suspesion, no wings, no PU, no fuel tank ect.
The airbox is not even touching the ground, So add the weight of a gearbox, Engine, hybrid system with heavy battery, fuel tank, rear wheels and rear suspension then the airbox will now sit on the ground (gap to escape reduced)

Now consider the side of the car on the ground (The drivers right hand side, or the side we cant see in that vid) add some suspension, tethered wheels to that side and its very likely the right hand side of the car will be propped up higher therefore rotating the car more upside down, and again reducing the gap to escape.

Then see how tricky it was to get out despite all these parts of the car missing, then you can see how a driver like Hulkenberg couldnt get out at all. I'm not quite sure how Hulkenbergs camera survived ? Is it something that has been reinforced to increase the gap to escape ? If so I never heard anything about it so it was done on the quiet :?:
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by Diesel » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:23 am

zac510 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:36 am
Is it really necessary to have speedy exit times in series like F1, F2, FE where there are half a dozen marshals at every corner to put out fires and full course safety cars to neutralise the circuit? If the driver is injured then he can't self-extract anyway, the medical car needs to attend and at that time marshals can work.

Of course at some club or national meeting where there are 1/3 the amount of marshals it would be different.
Yes, that's why the FIA have their own extraction tests. Cars can go up in flames very quickly, and re-light even after being extinguished. The extinguisher itself isn't exactly non-toxic, I can't imagine hanging upside down in a cloud of extinguisher was particularly nice for Hulkenberg, his radio wasn't easy listening either.

Surely with all the tech in F1 they can come up with a solution, perhaps a removable section on each side of the cockpit, like a single use door?
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by Tim.Wright » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:34 am

Formula Wrong wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:54 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:19 pm
If the car ends up like Perez in Budapest , the side he escaped from would have had a Halo bar running through the middle of it!
Wasn't that exactly the scenario they showed in their presentation last year that a driver can get out with the Halo? Car ending up upside down, slightly on its sidee?
Interestingly, that mockup scene shows the roll hoop off the ground which wouldn't be the case if the engine + transmission was still attached.
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by WaikeCU » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:59 am

What worries me the most is when a big accident occurs where the driver is in a critical condition with the car upside down. Imagine an accident similar to Kubica's. I haven't clocked it, but it took quite a while to flip the car and to get Nico out of the car. To me the HALO protects the head of the driver in certain accidents (which is good), but it's more difficult to access the driver for medical treatment and that's worrying.

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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by gibells » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:12 am

Manoah2u wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:20 am
...
BTW, i personally found it extremely but extremely suspicious, that when we got the onboard shots of hulkenberg, that before the car actually flipped over, they cut away and never after shown the onboard shots. were they hiding something there in regards to escaping? i don't think the camera survived the rollarcoaster ride anyway, but i found it too odd that they cut to exactly that shot and then right before contact, they cut away.

or am i missing actual full footage?
Isn't this just something the editors do in case there are terminal consequences to any accident. The last thing you want is views of the cockpit in the driver's last moments strewn across the internet.

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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by Formula Wrong » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:43 am

NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:45 am
Again, that video the car has no wheels, no suspesion, no wings, no PU, no fuel tank ect.
The airbox is not even touching the ground, So add the weight of a gearbox, Engine, hybrid system with heavy battery, fuel tank, rear wheels and rear suspension then the airbox will now sit on the ground (gap to escape reduced)
Tim.Wright wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:34 am
Interestingly, that mockup scene shows the roll hoop off the ground which wouldn't be the case if the engine + transmission was still attached.
True, so far we don't know how a full car with Halo would rest on the ground. Though in Hulk's case the airbox wasn't touching the ground either since the car was resting on the tecpros

Cannonballer wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:22 am
Manoah2u wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:20 am
BTW, i personally found it extremely but extremely suspicious, that when we got the onboard shots of hulkenberg, that before the car actually flipped over, they cut away and never after shown the onboard shots. were they hiding something there in regards to escaping? i don't think the camera survived the rollarcoaster ride anyway, but i found it too odd that they cut to exactly that shot and then right before contact, they cut away.

or am i missing actual full footage?
I just watched the onboard footage from Hulkenberg's car on F1TV. It is odd, the video feed goes out almost immediately after the initial contact with Grosjean.
Hulk's onboard doesn't look much different to me than other onboards from similar accidents in the past few years?
https://youtu.be/Jc2nsX4-Q54?t=25
https://youtu.be/FMn43oSLxuc?t=16
https://youtu.be/4o9TYzGy_q0?t=20

I don't think we need to interpret too much into it. Cameras can break, they're not made to be indestructable.
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by NathanOlder » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:39 pm

Formula Wrong wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:43 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:45 am
Again, that video the car has no wheels, no suspesion, no wings, no PU, no fuel tank ect.
The airbox is not even touching the ground, So add the weight of a gearbox, Engine, hybrid system with heavy battery, fuel tank, rear wheels and rear suspension then the airbox will now sit on the ground (gap to escape reduced)
Tim.Wright wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:34 am
Interestingly, that mockup scene shows the roll hoop off the ground which wouldn't be the case if the engine + transmission was still attached.
True, so far we don't know how a full car with Halo would rest on the ground.

Exactly, yet the FIA have said its fine and you can still get out, without testing this !!!! Does that not seem a little bloody silly ?! We've had 20 cars do 21 races which involve 5 sessions. So thats 525 times an F1 car has gone to the track with a Halo on it, and we dont know how the car sits when its upside down, yet the FIA and many on here (no saying you are one of them) telling us (me) that its fine, the driver will still get out no problem!
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by Big Tea » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:11 pm

What ever the truth of it, the very worst thing that can happen is another knee jerk response without thinking it through.
There is a thin line of things you just can do nothing about, and those that happen so infrequently it is not worth including the risk it causes at other times.

It needs more research, not 'instant response'
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by Formula Wrong » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:20 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:39 pm
Exactly, yet the FIA have said its fine and you can still get out, without testing this !!!! Does that not seem a little bloody silly ?! We've had 20 cars do 21 races which involve 5 sessions. So thats 525 times an F1 car has gone to the track with a Halo on it, and we dont know how the car sits when its upside down, yet the FIA and many on here (no saying you are one of them) telling us (me) that its fine, the driver will still get out no problem!
To be completely honest, I'm not entirely sure whether I'd agree or disagree to that.
On one hand you're right, if there has been no testing on this there might be some risk that hasn't been looked at enough.

On the other hand the FIA probably has more data available than any of us and probably/hopefully has at the very least done some evalutaion of the risks involved in different scenarios (and has done more than the one test we've seen).
It's not always a bad thing when the driver has to wait for the car to be turned over on its floor before getting out; in fact that has been the preferred procedure in some cases (e.g there have been two cases in German F4 last year, where the cars don't have a Halo yet).
But then there's also a bunch of "what if" scenarios. I've seen fire mentioned in many discussions and while I can't recall any big fire that was a serious threat for the driver after a crash in recent years (after all the cars nowadays don't explode into huge fireballs anymore and small fires like in Hulk's case aren't that much of a problem (or are they?)), the thought of a driver being stuck while for some reason the entire car is on fire definitely is scary. But if a crash damaged the battery it might be better to stay in the cockpit if you don't want to get electrocuted when touching the ground etc. etc.

We can only speculate about those but personally I do hope that the FIA has looked at those risks and found out that even with those things in mind having the Halo is still beneficial overall.
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by zac510 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:30 pm

Largest unattended fire I can recall was Webber's RBR in Korea, (edit: 2013 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iac5J0adxxw).