Renault ECUs impounded

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gridwalker
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Renault ECUs impounded

Post by gridwalker » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:04 pm

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/rena ... t/4557425/

Anybody care to elaborate on what the specific infringement may be?
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Sieper
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Sieper » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:15 pm

Brake balance changed automatically as per number of meters traveled. E.g driver aid.

Marc.W
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Marc.W » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:17 pm

gridwalker wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:04 pm
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/rena ... t/4557425/

Anybody care to elaborate on what the specific infringement may be?
From another article:

"Racing Point alleges the team’s two cars include a “pre-set lap distance-dependent brake bias adjustment system”. This is forbidden by article 11.1.4 of the technical regulations which states “any change to, or modulation of, the brake system… may not be pre-set”."

Manoah2u
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Manoah2u » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:58 am

Can't we just go back to simply having a fixed brake bias set for the session and it's no longer able to be operated by the driver during the race?
that way we wouldn't have this stuff going on, and we can have the drivers keep their hands on the steering wheel instead of changing stuff every corner.
bring racing back.
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Maritimer
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Maritimer » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:49 am

When was the last time brake bias was fixed? 60s? 70s? Every F1 car ive ever seen the inside of at least had a knob the driver could use during the race. Besides, bias controls are on the wheel so theres no removing the hand to twist a handle anymore, it's the press of a button.

raymondu999
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by raymondu999 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:20 am

I don't think a fixed setup brake bias, and a knob-changeable brake bias are actually workable in the current F1? Due to braking energy recovery which would surely mean a mechanical, "static" (for that braking zone, at least) brake bias would lead to many rear lockups
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marmer
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by marmer » Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:31 pm

am i the only one that doesn't understand why renault might have done this. its not making the brakes better its just saving the driver a job that they don'y seem to struggle with unless its actually doing a bit more illegally we don't know about. it just seems to risky for a team to do for no real improvment

Jolle
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Jolle » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:11 pm

marmer wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:31 pm
am i the only one that doesn't understand why renault might have done this. its not making the brakes better its just saving the driver a job that they don'y seem to struggle with unless its actually doing a bit more illegally we don't know about. it just seems to risky for a team to do for no real improvment
Convenience for the race and precision for qualifying. You can program the brake bias more accurate from sim data then a driver can set between corners.

bigblue
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by bigblue » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:21 pm

Maybe the bias changed between every corner. Not sure a driver would be fiddling around that much, so sort of a driver brake aid ? Just speculating.

Anyway, how did Racing Point figure this out ? Examination of onboard images ?

aleks_ader
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by aleks_ader » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:37 pm

In theory this could even be ABS like system. NO?
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henry
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by henry » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:57 pm

The brake balance needs to be adjusted to accommodate differences in load transfer at initial brake application. This depends on aero load, higher speed more aero load, higher braking force, more load transfer. It also depends, to a lesser extent, on road gradient. They may also like to take account of road grip.

They may have pre-programmed each corner but if they really wanted to automate it they would take aero load from air speed measurement and adaptively modify for road grip and gradient.
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Maritimer
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Maritimer » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:11 pm

bigblue wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:21 pm
Maybe the bias changed between every corner. Not sure a driver would be fiddling around that much, so sort of a driver brake aid ? Just speculating.

Anyway, how did Racing Point figure this out ? Examination of onboard images ?
The drivers change bias for almost every corner, it's just two buttons they press with their thumbs, not much fussing around. Two clicks up for this corner, one down for the next, etc.

Zynerji
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Zynerji » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:20 pm

Maritimer wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:11 pm
bigblue wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:21 pm
Maybe the bias changed between every corner. Not sure a driver would be fiddling around that much, so sort of a driver brake aid ? Just speculating.

Anyway, how did Racing Point figure this out ? Examination of onboard images ?
The drivers change bias for almost every corner, it's just two buttons they press with their thumbs, not much fussing around. Two clicks up for this corner, one down for the next, etc.
Realistically, if the computer was continuously crunching optimal solutions, that button press could just load the current optimal. It would be more like a driver activated pre-load than any skillful mastery on the "feel" of the car with an analog knob adjustment.

The line here can be blurry, I feel.

piast9
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by piast9 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:11 am

As far as I understood the Renault's trick was to apply the pre-programmed brake bias settings as each lap progressed. If so there was no computer aided optimization but it was still illegal.

bill shoe
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by bill shoe » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:26 am

Renault issued a press-release with typical positive/confident tones-
“Renault F1 Team acknowledges the protest lodged by SportPesa Racing Point F1 Team concerning its brake bias system following the Japanese Grand Prix,” the statement read. “Team representatives have met with the stewards of the event at Suzuka, but due to the complexity of the 12-page dossier prepared by SportPesa Racing Point F1 Team, a further meeting will take place at a future date, to be defined."
“Renault F1 Team intends to use this recess to prepare an equally detailed case to rigorously defend its position.”
https://racer.com/2019/10/13/racing-poi ... dmissible/

Hmm. The Renault quote is conspicuously different than the logical statement if they were innocent: "We did not use a system that adjusts brake bias according to position/distance on track."