Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
GPR-A
99
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

Dipesh1995 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:32 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:57 pm
That is just a broad, subjective statement from a competitor who has been unable to beat his main competitor. For that, he is giving an excuse. Unless there is an org structure that is public for both companies, which provides an accurate statistical picture of how many individuals work in each department, such statements carry no weight and just hot gas and can't be used as a proof in an argument.
I mean it’s up to you what you want to believe or not but I’m of the view that there is at least some truth to that statement. Not that this is some conclusive or even half-conclusive proof, but this may be of some interest to you. https://www.racefans.net/2020/01/02/the ... ams-spent/
The numbers there are so much skewed. For example: compare the number of employees in McLaren and Red Bull. Both are racing teams without an engine department. McLaren has 760 and Red Bull has 780 and the budget difference between the two teams is 85 million!

Most important part for me is, we don't know where those 220 extra employees in Mercedes are spread, compared to Red Bull. They could be spread in Marketing, HR, Administration, Finance, Manufacturing, Procurement, Aero, Vehicle Dynamics, Operations, Logistics, IT Support, Data Analytics, Management etc., That is why I mentioned earlier that, unless there is an accurate statistical picture of how they are spread, you can't take those numbers on the face of it OR for that matter, a claim made by Newey.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
746
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

Dipesh1995 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:10 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:45 am
Dipesh1995 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:50 am
Another factor to consider is that Mercedes have a substantially larger aero department than Red Bull and thus have more flexibility to split their resources.
Can you be more specific on the numbers?
According to Newey himself, the Mercedes aero department is about as twice as large. However, this may have been a little exaggeration having had the opportunity to chat with RB's aero department manager; still, "substantially larger" stands.
So what do RedBull spend all their money on?
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Jolle
Jolle
246
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:17 pm
Dipesh1995 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:10 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:45 am
Can you be more specific on the numbers?
According to Newey himself, the Mercedes aero department is about as twice as large. However, this may have been a little exaggeration having had the opportunity to chat with RB's aero department manager; still, "substantially larger" stands.
So what do RedBull spend all their money on?
Adrian Newey :D

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
374
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

It is tricky to quantify exactly how much they all spend. Ferrari have the whole GT business on site, Merc have the hypercar engine side and Formula E which are separate businesses but again share premises with HPP, RB have RB Technology and RB Advanced Technology and so on.

I think the big teams are very well placed to move money around and stretch the budget limits.

Ringleheim
Ringleheim
17
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:02 am

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

Bill wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:47 pm
It's not Mercedes it's who constantly changing regulations which magically seem to favor Mercedes.from tire rule front wing change
The technical regs are now so massively complex, only a company of the might of Daimler with its money and resources is going to get on top of everything.

Privateer/non-factory teams can't really compete at the highest level now.

McLaren has been blah forever; Red Bull is not a top tier team anymore and has not been for quite some time.

Renault's commitment to the sport is--as always---questionable, as is their effort level.

And even Ferrari can't get its act together.

Mercedes has the money, manpower, resources, and technical ability to dominate in an era when there is not a lot of competition.

It reminds me of Audi winning every year at LeMans...when Porsche had pulled out of the sport and there wasn't another single team operating on the level of Audi! Cheap wins....

Jolle
Jolle
246
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

Ringleheim wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:22 am
Bill wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:47 pm
It's not Mercedes it's who constantly changing regulations which magically seem to favor Mercedes.from tire rule front wing change
The technical regs are now so massively complex, only a company of the might of Daimler with its money and resources is going to get on top of everything.

Privateer/non-factory teams can't really compete at the highest level now.

McLaren has been blah forever; Red Bull is not a top tier team anymore and has not been for quite some time.

Renault's commitment to the sport is--as always---questionable, as is their effort level.

And even Ferrari can't get its act together.

Mercedes has the money, manpower, resources, and technical ability to dominate in an era when there is not a lot of competition.

It reminds me of Audi winning every year at LeMans...when Porsche had pulled out of the sport and there wasn't another single team operating on the level of Audi! Cheap wins....
Except for the odd championships, works/manufacturers teams won everything after the cosworth engine became obsolete (now almost 40 years ago).

When Williams were winning championships, they were basically the Renault team and McLaren had a run as PMI, Honda and Mercedes’ challenger. Brawn is the last real privateer with Benneton before that (who are now Mercedes and Renault respectively).

So it’s nothing new.

Mamba
Mamba
15
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:36 pm

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:53 pm
So 2017 was the same regulations as 2016 ? Or was there a big reg change ? How many parts were carried over ? None of the suspension, none of the wings, none of the barge boards, not the floor, not the difuser. Sounds pretty big when ALL the parts needed to be designed again.
I'm speaking about aero philosophy and you are speaking about parts. Teams redesign nearly all their parts for the new season in anycase.
Compare the 2008 to 2009 cars and the 2016 to 2017 cars. In both cases they look very different yes, but in the case of 2017 you still had wide and low out wash front wings, intricate floor designs, minimum radii specified for the bodywork. etc. This is the basis of what I am pointing out. While the cars are bigger the aerodynamic rules didn't change as much like they did in 2009 in terms of philosophy. I'm not saying that it was easy as you seem to think I imply, but that the aero philosophy pursued by most teams in 2016 was the same as in 2017. The boxes within which they could design their barge boards etc just grew substantially.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
528
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

It is and will be the longest period of dominance. I hope it ends in 2022.
.. OG.. OG.. OG.. OG..

User avatar
Jambier
15
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:02 am
Location: France

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:01 pm
It is and will be the longest period of dominance. I hope it ends in 2022.
Maybe if they leave F1 but otherwise not sure

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
746
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

If Mercedes are still dominant in 2022, there will be no one to blame but the teams themselves. It's an entirely new formula. No excuses.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

basti313
basti313
55
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:47 pm
If Mercedes are still dominant in 2022, there will be no one to blame but the teams themselves. It's an entirely new formula. No excuses.
It will be the same engine.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
746
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

basti313 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:02 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:47 pm
If Mercedes are still dominant in 2022, there will be no one to blame but the teams themselves. It's an entirely new formula. No excuses.
It will be the same engine.
So what? Why aren't all of the top spots held by Mercedes-engined teams if the PU is the be-all and end-all of the Formula? Really, it's getting boring as the same old excuse being offered.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Wass85
Wass85
-19
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

I seriously think Mercedes will stay at the top as long as they are still in the sport.

How long though does one enjoy continuous winning with no serious challenge?

User avatar
El Scorchio
49
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:30 pm
I seriously think Mercedes will stay at the top as long as they are still in the sport.

How long though does one enjoy continuous winning with no serious challenge?
It’s still obviously a continuous challenge for them though in terms of coming up with new ideas to try and stay ahead of the competition each year. It might not be a serious challenge on the circuit at times but that performance is just the reward for the team of the design and manufacturing challenge.

Who in terms of great performers in any sport gets tired of winning, even if at times they crush the opposition? Usain Bolt? Roger Federer? Tiger Woods? Phil Taylor? Alex Ferguson?

Wass85
Wass85
-19
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:53 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:30 pm
I seriously think Mercedes will stay at the top as long as they are still in the sport.

How long though does one enjoy continuous winning with no serious challenge?
It’s still obviously a continuous challenge for them though in terms of coming up with new ideas to try and stay ahead of the competition each year. It might not be a serious challenge on the circuit at times but that performance is just the reward for the team of the design and manufacturing challenge.

Who in terms of great performers in any sport gets tired of winning, even if at times they crush the opposition? Usain Bolt? Roger Federer? Tiger Woods? Phil Taylor? Alex Ferguson?
But surely it's an even bigger challenge for a team to finally defeat them?

If Mercedes master the new regs then their rivals are in for another painful few years.