Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Scorpaguy
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Ham to Nascar.

Rus in at Merc.

Bot...nobody cares.

Kingshark
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:34 pm
Now Hamilton has 7 XWDC they MUST pay him more because of that fact. And Hamilton needs his 8th. He drives they provide the car. They must pay him more and he must drive better and promote the brand better. No free meals for either if them.
No, Hamilton’s hand is weaker now than during his last contract extension in 2018 because;

1. Mercedes is more dominant now than they were in 2018, so they need him less
2. Hamilton is three years older now than he was then
3. Mercedes have a cheap young driver who has already shown what he can do in a Mercedes
4. COVID

I would be amazed if Daimler increase his salary. Let’s wait and see.

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raymondu999
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Jolle wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:31 pm
If for some reason Hamilton doesn’t come to an agreement with Mercedes, PMI would have a blank check waiting for him in Lausanne.
I’m sorry wht is PMI?
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raymondu999
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Kingshark wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:07 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:34 pm
Now Hamilton has 7 XWDC they MUST pay him more because of that fact. And Hamilton needs his 8th. He drives they provide the car. They must pay him more and he must drive better and promote the brand better. No free meals for either if them.
No, Hamilton’s hand is weaker now than during his last contract extension in 2018 because;

1. Mercedes is more dominant now than they were in 2018, so they need him less
2. Hamilton is three years older now than he was then
3. Mercedes have a cheap young driver who has already shown what he can do in a Mercedes
4. COVID

I would be amazed if Daimler increase his salary. Let’s wait and see.
I agree. “Morally” — you might think hiring Lewis now has more value given he has more titles and wins than his last contract extension. But Mercedes (the car company) imo has in the past been very strict business numbers oriented — very stereotypically German, in a sense — and they will see that because their car is so dominant then it doesn’t “require” a Lewis. A B or B+ driver would be “enough”

For example, if we eliminate Lewis out of this year’s results, and elevate every one 1 spot behind him in races by a spot, Bottas would have been “enough” to be champion. In fact the points gap between Verstappen and Bottas would increase (I did the sums in a spreadsheet some time back but I forgot where. Could be interesting to post as a thread some time if i can find it).

Hence — they don’t “need” a Lewis — they only need someone to be “just” as good as Bottas — whatever level he may be — to secure a title double.

May sound cruel to not offer a 7wdc more pay than you offer a 6(or less)wdc — but that is the harsh truth of business
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NathanE
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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raymondu999 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:14 am
Jolle wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:31 pm
If for some reason Hamilton doesn’t come to an agreement with Mercedes, PMI would have a blank check waiting for him in Lausanne.
I’m sorry wht is PMI?
I suspect Phillip Morris international. Can you really imagine Hamilton working for a tobacco company with a legacy in the slave trade?

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raymondu999
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Ehhh should we hold people to their past sins? I mean — the phillip morris of back then is a very different company.

But looking at Lewis’s recent activity I wouldnt doubt him bringing it up.

But would Ferrari really hire him? I feel like they’ve kinda made their bed with Leclerc
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Jolle
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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raymondu999 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:14 am
Jolle wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:31 pm
If for some reason Hamilton doesn’t come to an agreement with Mercedes, PMI would have a blank check waiting for him in Lausanne.
I’m sorry wht is PMI?
Philip Morris International. They run the marketing, sponsors, drivers etc for Ferrari (and in the past McLaren). They also used to run a pretty successful young driver program before Mercedes and Redbull.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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raymondu999 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:22 am
Kingshark wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:07 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:34 pm
Now Hamilton has 7 XWDC they MUST pay him more because of that fact. And Hamilton needs his 8th. He drives they provide the car. They must pay him more and he must drive better and promote the brand better. No free meals for either if them.
No, Hamilton’s hand is weaker now than during his last contract extension in 2018 because;

1. Mercedes is more dominant now than they were in 2018, so they need him less
2. Hamilton is three years older now than he was then
3. Mercedes have a cheap young driver who has already shown what he can do in a Mercedes
4. COVID

I would be amazed if Daimler increase his salary. Let’s wait and see.
I agree. “Morally” — you might think hiring Lewis now has more value given he has more titles and wins than his last contract extension. But Mercedes (the car company) imo has in the past been very strict business numbers oriented — very stereotypically German, in a sense — and they will see that because their car is so dominant then it doesn’t “require” a Lewis. A B or B+ driver would be “enough”

For example, if we eliminate Lewis out of this year’s results, and elevate every one 1 spot behind him in races by a spot, Bottas would have been “enough” to be champion. In fact the points gap between Verstappen and Bottas would increase (I did the sums in a spreadsheet some time back but I forgot where. Could be interesting to post as a thread some time if i can find it).

Hence — they don’t “need” a Lewis — they only need someone to be “just” as good as Bottas — whatever level he may be — to secure a title double.

May sound cruel to not offer a 7wdc more pay than you offer a 6(or less)wdc — but that is the harsh truth of business
Just had a quick look, and I make it Max gains 46pts and Bottas gains 47pts. So no change in results, you are correct. But considering Max had 5 retirements and Bottas had 1, It could and maybe should have been Max in 2nd place. A 10pt gap isn't big enough with 4 (3 if you add Silverstones non score for Bottas) extra non finishes for Max considering nearly every time he finshed, it was on the podium, so 10pts Bottas had were uselsess.
I would say looking at that, and the last 4 years as a whole. Mercedes do need Hamilton enough to pay him a big wage.
Don't forget the hype that will come if Lewis gets 8 titles, Merc will love that. Plus if he does get 2021 in the bag it means he also has 5 in a row like Michael did too , so another record equalled. More publicity .
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Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

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DChemTech
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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raymondu999 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:22 am
Kingshark wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:07 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:34 pm
Now Hamilton has 7 XWDC they MUST pay him more because of that fact. And Hamilton needs his 8th. He drives they provide the car. They must pay him more and he must drive better and promote the brand better. No free meals for either if them.
No, Hamilton’s hand is weaker now than during his last contract extension in 2018 because;

1. Mercedes is more dominant now than they were in 2018, so they need him less
2. Hamilton is three years older now than he was then
3. Mercedes have a cheap young driver who has already shown what he can do in a Mercedes
4. COVID

I would be amazed if Daimler increase his salary. Let’s wait and see.
I agree. “Morally” — you might think hiring Lewis now has more value given he has more titles and wins than his last contract extension. But Mercedes (the car company) imo has in the past been very strict business numbers oriented — very stereotypically German, in a sense — and they will see that because their car is so dominant then it doesn’t “require” a Lewis. A B or B+ driver would be “enough”

For example, if we eliminate Lewis out of this year’s results, and elevate every one 1 spot behind him in races by a spot, Bottas would have been “enough” to be champion. In fact the points gap between Verstappen and Bottas would increase (I did the sums in a spreadsheet some time back but I forgot where. Could be interesting to post as a thread some time if i can find it).

Hence — they don’t “need” a Lewis — they only need someone to be “just” as good as Bottas — whatever level he may be — to secure a title double.

May sound cruel to not offer a 7wdc more pay than you offer a 6(or less)wdc — but that is the harsh truth of business
One can already wonder with 'traditional jobs' if the compensation system (more experience means more money) is fair. More experience does not always mean more competence. Hell, quite likely, people deliver their best work in their 30s-40s, when they have reasonable experience and energy, and likely have the most use for the money at that age too. But I digress..

At these salary levels, there is no connection between sportive capabilities and salary anyhow. The salary depends on marketability. Of course, Lewis has the upshot there as well, being a 7x WDC, but at some point the additional salary just won't pay itself back in extra hat- and polo sales. Or at least, no more than a rising star like George could with a bit of a marketing push.

Of course, one can wonder about the fairness of the whole merchandise scheme as well. Of course, soccer is the worst in this respect. In the end, it's mostly people with a median-or-lower wage spending substantial fractions of their hard-earned earnings on tickets and clothing (which they replace every year because it has a somewhat different color), just so that some guys that are very good at kicking a ball have a lavish lifestyle. It would be very well possible to considerably reduce ticket/merchandise prices such that the 'normal fan' has more access (or more money to spend on things they actually need), while maintaining the same entertainment value, and the only 'drawback' is that the players need to buy a smaller boat. F1 doesn't suffer from this in the same respect because the tech & travel is a much larger part of overall cost, but still - multi-million dollar remunerations have no relation with the skill necessary, nor are they needed from an entertainment or from a 'sufficient compensation' (to have a good life) standpoint. Even if a driver has absolutely no other job after F1, if they earn 1M a year for 5-10 years, they're absolutely fine.

But yeah, unbridled market economics and such...(note: I have nothing against the main principle of market economics, but it needs boundary conditions to work without exploitation). anyway, I digress again. Point is, I agree it's a numbers game. But in the end I think the main numbers game is not (just) 'will we become WD/CC with this driver', but 'besides becoming WD/CC (which is the 'qualifying demand' for any driver), which driver will give us maximum merchandise income and brand recognition'

Just_a_fan
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Kingshark wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:07 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:34 pm
Now Hamilton has 7 XWDC they MUST pay him more because of that fact. And Hamilton needs his 8th. He drives they provide the car. They must pay him more and he must drive better and promote the brand better. No free meals for either if them.
No, Hamilton’s hand is weaker now than during his last contract extension in 2018 because;

1. Mercedes is more dominant now than they were in 2018, so they need him less
2. Hamilton is three years older now than he was then
3. Mercedes have a cheap young driver who has already shown what he can do in a Mercedes
4. COVID

I would be amazed if Daimler increase his salary. Let’s wait and see.
It's not the salary that's the issue. It's the non-racing stuff. He wants to have more control of his image rights, for example, as he mentioned in an interview last season. As an example, in the UK there is an advert for a sanitiser made by INEOS. It starts by saying something like "Whether you live to race or race to save lives" and shows Hamilton / F1 car before switching to a nurse. I bet he wants more say in such things and that's where the hold up is. I would bet on INEOS wanting to use him / his image a lot for marketing of their stuff and I would bet on him pushing back against that. INEOS have spent a lot of money buying in to the successful F1 brand and that includes Hamilton. They'll want their pound of flesh back. And, as good as Russell is in a racing car, he isn't marketing gold like Hamilton currently is.

An example from INEOS's sanitiser website:
Image
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Jolle
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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The main goal of the Mercedes F1 team is not to win races and championships but to sell more cars.
Yes there is a moral question if a sport star should earn so much but on the other hand there is a moral question that if a stars connection is worth an x amount of extra sales value, isn’t underpaying him more wrong?
As an example. Michael Jordan’s connection with Nike not only gave them a whole new market, but also billions in sales and profit (even after his retirement). During his Bull’s years, he got around 100m a year, a ludicrous amount but for what Nike made because of him, you could also say he was underpaid.
Daimler and they marketing strategies know what they have and certainly have the numbers. Over the past two contracts they already decided that Hamilton is worth it (and this got less to do with his driving, more with the image). Looking at their other celebrity deals, his activism is something they embrace, Tilda Swindon for instance, a leading activist for LGBTQ rights (and as shown with other brands, embracing activists for equality shares a positive image and boosts sales and image). So.... why would Daimler pay less? Or is it that some people here just don’t like him?

DChemTech
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Jolle wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:25 am
The main goal of the Mercedes F1 team is not to win races and championships but to sell more cars.
Yes there is a moral question if a sport star should earn so much but on the other hand there is a moral question that if a stars connection is worth an x amount of extra sales value, isn’t underpaying him more wrong?
As an example. Michael Jordan’s connection with Nike not only gave them a whole new market, but also billions in sales and profit (even after his retirement). During his Bull’s years, he got around 100m a year, a ludicrous amount but for what Nike made because of him, you could also say he was underpaid.
Daimler and they marketing strategies know what they have and certainly have the numbers. Over the past two contracts they already decided that Hamilton is worth it (and this got less to do with his driving, more with the image). Looking at their other celebrity deals, his activism is something they embrace, Tilda Swindon for instance, a leading activist for LGBTQ rights (and as shown with other brands, embracing activists for equality shares a positive image and boosts sales and image). So.... why would Daimler pay less? Or is it that some people here just don’t like him?
My point was mainly that the premium on sports merchandise is absurd. That's in part on the crowd being willing to pay it, and in part on the companies exploiting this willingness, but the premiums could be reduced with no impact other than the wages of a few people (athletes and brand managers) being reduced to a more humane level... I also don't per se agree that MJ was underpaid also. Compare it to, say, an engineer or product developer having some breakthrough that delivers the company X million in sales/profit/savings. They'll get a bonus or promotion probably, but in no way is the remuneration proportional to the impact of their contribution. Anyway, this is a bit of a tangent to the whole topic :P

Jolle
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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DChemTech wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:47 am
Jolle wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:25 am
The main goal of the Mercedes F1 team is not to win races and championships but to sell more cars.
Yes there is a moral question if a sport star should earn so much but on the other hand there is a moral question that if a stars connection is worth an x amount of extra sales value, isn’t underpaying him more wrong?
As an example. Michael Jordan’s connection with Nike not only gave them a whole new market, but also billions in sales and profit (even after his retirement). During his Bull’s years, he got around 100m a year, a ludicrous amount but for what Nike made because of him, you could also say he was underpaid.
Daimler and they marketing strategies know what they have and certainly have the numbers. Over the past two contracts they already decided that Hamilton is worth it (and this got less to do with his driving, more with the image). Looking at their other celebrity deals, his activism is something they embrace, Tilda Swindon for instance, a leading activist for LGBTQ rights (and as shown with other brands, embracing activists for equality shares a positive image and boosts sales and image). So.... why would Daimler pay less? Or is it that some people here just don’t like him?
My point was mainly that the premium on sports merchandise is absurd. That's in part on the crowd being willing to pay it, and in part on the companies exploiting this willingness, but the premiums could be reduced with no impact other than the wages of a few people (athletes and brand managers) being reduced to a more humane level... I also don't per se agree that MJ was underpaid also. Compare it to, say, an engineer or product developer having some breakthrough that delivers the company X million in sales/profit/savings. They'll get a bonus or promotion probably, but in no way is the remuneration proportional to the impact of their contribution. Anyway, this is a bit of a tangent to the whole topic :P
We both know that the additional profit of Nike because of Jordan didn’t went to the kids who made the shoes but to Phill Knight and the shareholders (nice name for a punk band now I think of it) ;-) at least with additional sales of Mercedes cars, more people will be employed and if in Germany, with good wages and social security.
The world isn’t fair, unfortunately. But let’s start with the people who decide to underpay their staff to have more for themselves, while already billionaires instead of sport stars who are actually selling the brand.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Whether you personally like him or not, the simple fact is that Hamilton is money both for Mercedes and F1 in general. He's probably more famous and recognisable globally than all the rest of the drivers combined, and will be paid accordingly, based both on his driving ability and also the publicity and marketing value he alone brings in. People all over the world who have never even seen an F1 race know exactly who he is.

He's not going to be paid more than anyone thinks he's worth, but he's certainly worth substantially more than all the other drivers and Mercedes will see it as money well spent. Simple economics.

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Big Tea
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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You know, after initially and immediately dismissing 'Hamilton to Ferrari', I am having second thoughts.
He will have seen the potential in that car with Chas, and also seen them finish the year in the record books on a long time low.

What could give him more kudos than another championship? a championship in an unrated car.

Still don't think it will happen, but... not dismissing it now
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So don't kick.