Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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ab_f1 wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:17 pm
Shrieker wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:58 pm
Source video
I hope this puts to bed the story that Ham understeered into Ver, or the way worse one, that Ham tried to take him out deliberately.
I was there on that corner. Between them appearing on the corner and stones hitting us because of Max's crash, was just about blink of an eye.
To consider this anything other than accident would be overestimating human abilities massively
Was it true that shrapnel got to a woman's arm?

After all of this, I suggest that FIa extend the tech pro barrier another 20 meters at least; that would have caught Max.
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hollus
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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I want to point out that in the end, those two cars made contact by a mere couple of centimeters, an inch.
Whle the drivers look forward, not to the side.
At 300 km/h.
Turning under braking.
In changing grip conditions.

The analysis is awesome, but the hunt for a guilty party looks excessive in a collision that was extremely close to not being a collision.
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RZS10
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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This.

Pull them apart by a few centimetres and Max probably touches Lewis' FW and it could have been Lewis having to get a new nose and Max getting away without too much damage, or possibly a punctured (but not suddenly deflated) tyre - in that case it might have been ruled a racing incident. Pull them apart a bit more and nothing happens.

It's extremely fine margins which decide how those things play out.
Last edited by RZS10 on Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Big Tea
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:35 am
ab_f1 wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:17 pm
Shrieker wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:58 pm
Source video
I hope this puts to bed the story that Ham understeered into Ver, or the way worse one, that Ham tried to take him out deliberately.
I was there on that corner. Between them appearing on the corner and stones hitting us because of Max's crash, was just about blink of an eye.
To consider this anything other than accident would be overestimating human abilities massively
Was it true that shrapnel got to a woman's arm?

After all of this, I suggest that FIa extend the tech pro barrier another 20 meters at least; that would have caught Max.
I think the problem with Max impact was the missing tyre. Had it just deflated it would have dragged off a lot of speed, and as it lifted the leading side of the car there was little 'digging' into the gravel but skiing over it
How can I learn Braille for 'Danger do not touch'

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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:35 am
ab_f1 wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:17 pm
Shrieker wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:58 pm
Source video
I hope this puts to bed the story that Ham understeered into Ver, or the way worse one, that Ham tried to take him out deliberately.
I was there on that corner. Between them appearing on the corner and stones hitting us because of Max's crash, was just about blink of an eye.
To consider this anything other than accident would be overestimating human abilities massively
Was it true that shrapnel got to a woman's arm?

After all of this, I suggest that FIa extend the tech pro barrier another 20 meters at least; that would have caught Max.
This is first I am hearing of it.
No one around seemed to be injured or anything.
For sure there was a rain of stones but nothing serious.
If something of that sort would have happened, I am sure a medic or some first aid would have been given.

I was surprised though that the Tech Pro barrier did not cover that particular part. Especially given high speed nature of that corner.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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TimW wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:26 am
@Shrieker, look at the little black dot above the nose of Hamilton's car, gives a good indication of his trajectory and whether or not he is understeering.
I said in the race thread I think, that there was a little unersteer just as Max got close. The wake from Max's front wing probably caused this as Max came closer to Lewis. Lewis may well have made the Apex if Max hadn't come so close, so its impossible to blame either really.

I really can't see how this is anything other than a racing incident. Especially as it was on lap 1 in the middle sector.
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:19 am
Juzh wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:58 am

No one deliberately tried to have an accident.
Yet, they were both willing to have one.

I expected this of Verstappen, I guess I didn't of Hamilton.

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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:48 pm
TimW wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:26 am
@Shrieker, look at the little black dot above the nose of Hamilton's car, gives a good indication of his trajectory and whether or not he is understeering.
I said in the race thread I think, that there was a little unersteer just as Max got close. The wake from Max's front wing probably caused this as Max came closer to Lewis. Lewis may well have made the Apex if Max hadn't come so close, so its impossible to blame either really.

I really can't see how this is anything other than a racing incident. Especially as it was on lap 1 in the middle sector.
This is a high speed entry on full fuel load, the way to take the corner is with a few degrees of understeer.

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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Fulcrum wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:00 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:19 am
Juzh wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:58 am

No one deliberately tried to have an accident.
Yet, they were both willing to have one.

I expected this of Verstappen, I guess I didn't of Hamilton.
It feels over the years it’s part of Verstappen’s racing: I’m willing to have an accident more then you do. So, 9/10 they give him more space. This was the 10th.

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SiLo
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Fulcrum wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:00 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:19 am
Juzh wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:58 am

No one deliberately tried to have an accident.
Yet, they were both willing to have one.

I expected this of Verstappen, I guess I didn't of Hamilton.
It's been a while since Hamilton has had to be aggressive to be honest.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Cross posting from the race thread.

This is a video of when Max andLance crashed in Portugal 2020. I realy wonder how I did not remember this!

These are the same rules applied, only that the corner is sliwer and Max is on the inside and even further behind. Press the play button to watch.

Pretty much closes the case.
popovic94 wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:19 pm
Short memory :roll:
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hollus
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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And why are you cross posting here? Closing the case… are you trying to win something?
One can analyze (on topic, check the thread’s title), without needing to either win or lose a discussion (off topic, check the thread’s title).
Not only aimed at you, PZ, it is mod frustration venting.
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RZS10
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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No idea how useful this is but a further possible input for the analysis is the pole lap, which shows the ideal line when the drivers are alone and not fighting for the corner.
1. Turn in starts at the second black block before the last marker with the car on the white line.
2. His right front wheel touches the white line at the 2nd red block.
3. The actual apex is roughly at the last red piece of the inside curb
4. He's maybe four (?) wheel widths away from the inside white line when the b/w markings end
4. Lewis reaches the outside curb at the tenth triple triangle marking counting from the end of the curb. (or 6th)
5. The car is fully straight at the third last of those markers.
This allows to put several markers into the composites to have a rough idea what a normal line through that corner looks like.

In the LEC/HAM one this practically means that the ideal line starts roughly where Charles was, then has the apex where Lewis was at one point but then doesn't go wide as quickly but then still carries the car wider than Lewis was.

Image
HIGH RES: https://s6.gifyu.com/images/image6cd1418e5b97cd1a.png

One could essentially say that Charles was initially on the ideal line but then diverged from it to make space on the inside and even went wide knowing that there was a car there but Lewis also goes wide, which is expected from such an approach angle.

It's harder to do this in the other composite since the camera moves away with Max so take it with a decent pinch of salt:

Image
HIGH RES: https://i.imgur.com/kjj1a6C.jpg

It's all absolute guesswork but comparing the positions of Max and Charles relative to that line it would appear that Max was rather going towards that line, whilst Charles was moving away from it.

Whether that actually adds anything? No clue.

[removed the 'grid' thing]

There's also many other ways to actually analyse this instead of screaming bloody murder, accusing the 'other side' of being biased and just reaffirming each others preconceived opinions whilst doing exactly the same and posting terrible memes as childish 'gotchas' which is what the race thread had turned into.

The onboards with telemetry would provide entry speeds, steering angles etc which would allow to decide whether there was significant understeer or any at all, the very first post here would indicate that the distance to the inside line was shrinking for example which would mean that if there was understeer that it wasn't huge.

The steering angles from the pole lap (left) vs. moments before contact (right)
Image
Not a massive difference, would be more useful with the speed at that time, the shallower line would require more turn in.

[EDIT:imgur deleted an image for some reason, replaced the image and linked higher resolution versions]
Last edited by RZS10 on Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:31 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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hollus wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:50 pm
Not only aimed at you, PZ, it is mod frustration venting.
With respect, the moderators might be less frustrated if they cracked down on all the trolling harder. I reported a post earlier that referred to Lewis as homicidal and it was closed and nothing was done. If blatant trolling is allowed to continue, then the form will continue to get worse with regards to the back and forth.

Imo, the mods are as culpable as the users are!
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Fulcrum
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Relative to the above diagrams, it appears Verstappen is a lot closer to Leclerc's line than Hamilton (vs Verstappen) is to Hamilton (vs Leclerc). Hamilton being a full car's width wider vs. Verstappen than vs. Leclerc.

Neither party innocent I'm afraid, racing incident, but Hamilton more to blame for me considering the dynamics of that corner.

I don't want to see Hamilton becoming more like Verstappen in this regard. It might be hard racing, drawing a line in the sand or whatever, but it doesn't sit well with me.
Last edited by Fulcrum on Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.