Red Bull RB16B

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
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godlameroso
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Location: Miami FL

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:46 am
Curbstone wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:40 am
A new chassis is not an upgrade. The specs of the new chassis must be the same as the old.
The replacement was done because there may have been something wrong with the old one, not because the new one was better.
Maybe they tested all chassis on flex and changed to the least flexing one(s)
The high rake philosophy may work wonderfully around places like Mexico and Brazil because the high rake promotes strong vorticity.

https://www.f1technical.net/features/23505

This wonderful and incredibly insightful article =D> mentions this in beautiful detailed CFD images.

Image

Perhaps the high rake setup with it's well defined vorticity is somewhat less sensitive to altitude changes for (in my caveman reasoning*) the same reason that turbocharged engines are somewhat less sensitive to altitude changes.
Saishū kōnā

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Bandit1216
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Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:55 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:09 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:46 am
Curbstone wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:40 am
A new chassis is not an upgrade. The specs of the new chassis must be the same as the old.
The replacement was done because there may have been something wrong with the old one, not because the new one was better.
Maybe they tested all chassis on flex and changed to the least flexing one(s)
The high rake philosophy may work wonderfully around places like Mexico and Brazil because the high rake promotes strong vorticity.

https://www.f1technical.net/features/23505

This wonderful and incredibly insightful article =D> mentions this in beautiful detailed CFD images.

https://f1tcdn.net/images/features/2021 ... angled.jpg

Perhaps the high rake setup with it's well defined vorticity is somewhat less sensitive to altitude changes for (in my caveman reasoning*) the same reason that turbocharged engines are somewhat less sensitive to altitude changes.

I always wondered what the real reason was. A huge compressor, and so less rpm than needed on the compressor-mgu-h-turbine assembly, having more spare to increases rpm on altitude. I thought Renault and later Honda were more on the large side, accepting a little bit more lag (or more energy to compensate for lag), and merc being more on the limit, so they do not have rpm spare for altitude. Pikes peak engineers know all about this. The rpm on the turbo will increase significantly when the turbo is compensating for high altitude.

But the rake is beyond me. The turbo is quite simple a waste gate that compensates, but the chassis?

If you see the pictures of that article one could imagine why a merc is especially limited when trying to pass a redbull.
But just suppose it weren't hypothetical.

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godlameroso
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Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Bandit1216 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:22 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:09 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:46 am


Maybe they tested all chassis on flex and changed to the least flexing one(s)
The high rake philosophy may work wonderfully around places like Mexico and Brazil because the high rake promotes strong vorticity.

https://www.f1technical.net/features/23505

This wonderful and incredibly insightful article =D> mentions this in beautiful detailed CFD images.

https://f1tcdn.net/images/features/2021 ... angled.jpg

Perhaps the high rake setup with it's well defined vorticity is somewhat less sensitive to altitude changes for (in my caveman reasoning*) the same reason that turbocharged engines are somewhat less sensitive to altitude changes.

I always wondered what the real reason was. A huge compressor, and so less rpm than needed on the compressor-mgu-h-turbine assembly, having more spare to increases rpm on altitude. I thought Renault and later Honda were more on the large side, accepting a little bit more lag (or more energy to compensate for lag), and merc being more on the limit, so they do not have rpm spare for altitude. Pikes peak engineers know all about this. The rpm on the turbo will increase significantly when the turbo is compensating for high altitude.

But the rake is beyond me. The turbo is quite simple a waste gate that compensates, but the chassis?

If you see the pictures of that article one could imagine why a merc is especially limited when trying to pass a redbull.
A compressor's inlet creates a vacuum, a suction at the throat, a compressor does in practice what the name ram air did in advertising.

The low pressure conduit at the throat of the compressor draws in air. The low pressure in a vortex acts as a conduit for air, and the effect is enhanced due to, well, ground effect. Because there's less atmospheric pressure, the core of the vortex being a conduit becomes more efficient, somewhat negating the reduction in overall mass flow. For the same reason the conduit in the compressor inlet negates the reduction in overall mass flow.
Saishū kōnā

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16B

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:09 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:46 am
Curbstone wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:40 am
A new chassis is not an upgrade. The specs of the new chassis must be the same as the old.
The replacement was done because there may have been something wrong with the old one, not because the new one was better.
Maybe they tested all chassis on flex and changed to the least flexing one(s)
The high rake philosophy may work wonderfully around places like Mexico and Brazil because the high rake promotes strong vorticity.

https://www.f1technical.net/features/23505

This wonderful and incredibly insightful article =D> mentions this in beautiful detailed CFD images.

https://f1tcdn.net/images/features/2021 ... angled.jpg

Perhaps the high rake setup with it's well defined vorticity is somewhat less sensitive to altitude changes for (in my caveman reasoning*) the same reason that turbocharged engines are somewhat less sensitive to altitude changes.
Indeed, if an F1 boss shouts to all look left (our engine works miracles on altitude) you know you have to look right (its the aero they don't want you to take a look at). Wasn't it a coincidence that in a RB not only the Renault engine did well on altitude but also the Honda..?

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diffuser
240
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:03 pm
Bandit1216 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:22 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:09 pm


The high rake philosophy may work wonderfully around places like Mexico and Brazil because the high rake promotes strong vorticity.

https://www.f1technical.net/features/23505

This wonderful and incredibly insightful article =D> mentions this in beautiful detailed CFD images.

https://f1tcdn.net/images/features/2021 ... angled.jpg

Perhaps the high rake setup with it's well defined vorticity is somewhat less sensitive to altitude changes for (in my caveman reasoning*) the same reason that turbocharged engines are somewhat less sensitive to altitude changes.

I always wondered what the real reason was. A huge compressor, and so less rpm than needed on the compressor-mgu-h-turbine assembly, having more spare to increases rpm on altitude. I thought Renault and later Honda were more on the large side, accepting a little bit more lag (or more energy to compensate for lag), and merc being more on the limit, so they do not have rpm spare for altitude. Pikes peak engineers know all about this. The rpm on the turbo will increase significantly when the turbo is compensating for high altitude.

But the rake is beyond me. The turbo is quite simple a waste gate that compensates, but the chassis?

If you see the pictures of that article one could imagine why a merc is especially limited when trying to pass a redbull.
A compressor's inlet creates a vacuum, a suction at the throat, a compressor does in practice what the name ram air did in advertising.

The low pressure conduit at the throat of the compressor draws in air. The low pressure in a vortex acts as a conduit for air, and the effect is enhanced due to, well, ground effect. Because there's less atmospheric pressure, the core of the vortex being a conduit becomes more efficient, somewhat negating the reduction in overall mass flow. For the same reason the conduit in the compressor inlet negates the reduction in overall mass flow.
Maybe it worse cause low rake has 2 vortexs closer together that help push each other?

Image


Anyways both Merc and RBR are running high rake.


That article avoided talking about the being able to run a 2 degrees lower rear wing angle(with High rake) and getting the same rear wing angle(at lower speeds)of a low rake car.

Also was RBR having the FIA check Merc rear suspension...Is that confirmation that they think Merc is using a 3 stage high rake ? Where at extreme high speed they feel the Merc is getting so low in the rear of the car that they're stalling the diffuser resulting in less DF and drag?

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hollus
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Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Wrong thread... You are more than welcome to link to a rake thread, or create one, and continue there. But here, please, RB16 or nothing.
¡Puxa Esportin!

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Bandit1216
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Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:55 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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hollus wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:01 pm
Wrong thread... You are more than welcome to link to a rake thread, or create one, and continue there. But here, please, RB16 or nothing.
Hmmmmm. May I please have a bit reservation on that, or will that get me banned? Can one talk about Alexandra Daddario and whether She is beautiful or not, without discussing her (imo) very beautiful breaths? It's kinda a package deal isn't it? Alexandra is definitely off topic. I can agree in that :D
But just suppose it weren't hypothetical.

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Wouter
685
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Red Bull: several brake sockets for thin air
Giorgio Piola
Nov 5, 2021, 10:13 am
The Milton Keynes team introduced an enhanced brake cooling system in Mexico City to provide the disc and pads with the necessary fresh air despite a flow with a density much less than sea level.
Image


More pictures of the RB16B in Mexico. Just click on the arrows in the images to scroll through them…

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-m ... s/6747934/

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Morteza
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Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:23 pm
Location: Bushehr, Iran

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Image

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Via Motorsport.com
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

dxpetrov
dxpetrov
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Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 2:39 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Monaco style rear wing, as expected...

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etusch
193
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Morteza wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:50 pm

Image
Metal teeths at older became CF.

Image

SuperCNJ
SuperCNJ
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Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:36 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Any clues as to whether there could be upgrades for the last two races or is it too late for that now?

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Wouter
685
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Can anyone tell me where I can find the race scrutineering of the last race?
I'm curious about car 33 and car 11. The last pdf I can find is this one:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... eering.pdf

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west52keep64
8
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:05 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Wouter wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:14 pm
Can anyone tell me where I can find the race scrutineering of the last race?
I'm curious about car 33 and car 11. The last pdf I can find is this one:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... eering.pdf
It's here:
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... eering.pdf

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Wouter
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Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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west52keep64 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:32 pm
Wouter wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:14 pm
Can anyone tell me where I can find the race scrutineering of the last race?
I'm curious about car 33 and car 11. The last pdf I can find is this one:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... eering.pdf
It's here:
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... eering.pdf
Thank you @west52keep64.

This ( Event&Timing Information) is the site I always use during the raceweekends when I go to the FIA site
and there is no doc 53 at the Technical Reports,
normaly there is always the race scrutineering, this time it isn't. :

https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... nformation