Scuderia Ferrari SF90

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
Just_a_fan
492
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Just_a_fan » Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:33 pm

Zarathustra wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:54 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:56 am
Clean shot of the new diffuser
https://mediaproxy.tickaroo.com/v3/imag ... 3665a5135c
AMuS
I am a real aero noob- so having said that myself, here’s my question;

I’ve noticed over the years- it started with the front wings, that the more ‘elements’ the better and now they also do it at the diffuser (edge).

Hypothetically speaking- if it would be allowed & possible and they created a diffuser (edge) existing out of 50 tiny elements- would this in theory be even better than the 4 they currently use?
The multiple parts are there because they need slots to inject air in to the airflow. This is needed to keep the flow attached etc. Just adding more slots won't help once the flow is working fully.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Zarathustra
-3
User avatar
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:19 pm
Location: Always on the move- never at one place.

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Zarathustra » Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:46 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:33 pm
Zarathustra wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:54 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:56 am
Clean shot of the new diffuser
https://mediaproxy.tickaroo.com/v3/imag ... 3665a5135c
AMuS
I am a real aero noob- so having said that myself, here’s my question;

I’ve noticed over the years- it started with the front wings, that the more ‘elements’ the better and now they also do it at the diffuser (edge).

Hypothetically speaking- if it would be allowed & possible and they created a diffuser (edge) existing out of 50 tiny elements- would this in theory be even better than the 4 they currently use?
The multiple parts are there because they need slots to inject air in to the airflow. This is needed to keep the flow attached etc. Just adding more slots won't help once the flow is working fully.
It has to do with the coanda effect, right? If you keep the airflow attached, you’ will have a better coanda effect?

So in theory; would an element made out of 50 tiny slots keep the airflow even better attached- to prevent the slightest of separation?

Just_a_fan
492
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Just_a_fan » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:46 pm

If you have so many parts in such a small area, you run in to the situation that you don't have enough actual surface to do any work with. If 3 slots makes it work properly, 30 slots won't make it work better but it might reduce the lift/turning force you're trying to get (because the lift force acts on the surface, not the gap).

There is also the issue that as the parts get smaller, they become inherently less stiff meaning you risk oscillations with attendant unstable flows behind. So you need to add lots of stiffeners which adds complexity, and places obstacles in the way of the flows you want to use.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Ashwinv16
29
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:04 am

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Ashwinv16 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:23 pm

Zarathustra wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:46 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:33 pm
Zarathustra wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:54 pm

I am a real aero noob- so having said that myself, here’s my question;

I’ve noticed over the years- it started with the front wings, that the more ‘elements’ the better and now they also do it at the diffuser (edge).

Hypothetically speaking- if it would be allowed & possible and they created a diffuser (edge) existing out of 50 tiny elements- would this in theory be even better than the 4 they currently use?
The multiple parts are there because they need slots to inject air in to the airflow. This is needed to keep the flow attached etc. Just adding more slots won't help once the flow is working fully.
It has to do with the coanda effect, right? If you keep the airflow attached, you’ will have a better coanda effect?

So in theory; would an element made out of 50 tiny slots keep the airflow even better attached- to prevent the slightest of separation?
No coanda in current f1 (well not majorly focused on) as it requires a pressure differential in teems of potential or kibetic energy. So change in temp or height. I think you mean venturi or simply flow-attachment.
Halo not as bad as we thought

Just_a_fan
492
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Just_a_fan » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:39 pm

Ashwinv16 wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:23 pm
No coanda in current f1 (well not majorly focused on) as it requires a pressure differential in teems of potential or kibetic energy. So change in temp or height. I think you mean venturi or simply flow-attachment.
Any fluid jet following a convex surface is exhibiting the coanda effect. In the case of wings (and the diffuser exit), the coanda effect occurs when higher energy air is injected in to the stream that is following the curved surface - hence the slots between wing elements and the slots in the diffuser exit. The slots create, in effect, a wide jet of air and that jet is what experiences the coanda effect. The jet is caused by the pressure differential across the wing's surfaces.

The diffuser slots allow for greater turning of the flow to use the wake of the rear wheel to draw air from the diffuser's exit.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Zarathustra
-3
User avatar
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:19 pm
Location: Always on the move- never at one place.

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Zarathustra » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:37 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:46 pm
If you have so many parts in such a small area, you run in to the situation that you don't have enough actual surface to do any work with. If 3 slots makes it work properly, 30 slots won't make it work better but it might reduce the lift/turning force you're trying to get (because the lift force acts on the surface, not the gap).

There is also the issue that as the parts get smaller, they become inherently less stiff meaning you risk oscillations with attendant unstable flows behind. So you need to add lots of stiffeners which adds complexity, and places obstacles in the way of the flows you want to use.
Thx for the answer- much appreciated!

Morteza
1888
User avatar
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:23 pm
Location: Bushehr, Iran

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Morteza » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:34 pm

Nicolas Carpentiers wrote:From what we can see, the new diffusor on the Ferrari is similar to the one tested in France except for the outboard smaller strake, which was removed in Singapore (compare yellow arrows)
Image
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

Ashwinv16
29
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:04 am

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Ashwinv16 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:02 am

Anything on Ferrari's new suspension
Halo not as bad as we thought

Ashwinv16
29
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:04 am

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Ashwinv16 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:03 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:39 pm
Ashwinv16 wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:23 pm
No coanda in current f1 (well not majorly focused on) as it requires a pressure differential in teems of potential or kibetic energy. So change in temp or height. I think you mean venturi or simply flow-attachment.
Any fluid jet following a convex surface is exhibiting the coanda effect. In the case of wings (and the diffuser exit), the coanda effect occurs when higher energy air is injected in to the stream that is following the curved surface - hence the slots between wing elements and the slots in the diffuser exit. The slots create, in effect, a wide jet of air and that jet is what experiences the coanda effect. The jet is caused by the pressure differential across the wing's surfaces.

The diffuser slots allow for greater turning of the flow to use the wake of the rear wheel to draw air from the diffuser's exit.
So it is another term for flow attachment (But on convex/concave surfaces only)
Halo not as bad as we thought

LuisFeF1
124
User avatar
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:50 am

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by LuisFeF1 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:34 pm

Image

Small change in Turning Vanes in Singapore:
Lower fin slightly longer (yellow arrow)

Big Tea
67
User avatar
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Big Tea » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:55 pm

LuisFeF1 wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:34 pm
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/487 ... f869_o.jpg

Small change in Turning Vanes in Singapore:
Lower fin slightly longer (yellow arrow)
Would that 'hole' have a airflow or blow?
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

McMika98
-36
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:40 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by McMika98 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:01 pm

Anyone seen the latest Autosport edition of Why Ferrari were faster? All down to the new cape apparently.
What most commentator have missed, credit to Peter Windsor who is a man with good connections: is that Ferrari actually had a large rake this rake. I didnt believe it but looking at race pictures they were as high as the RedBulls.

tommizi
1
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:50 am

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by tommizi » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:56 am

As always, it 's all about balance. If they managed to get more out the front wing
(cape made it work harder) then they were able to increase rear-downforce as well.

Bill
-5
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 am

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Bill » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:45 am

Racing point and Mclaren has these cape so what s so magical about it

Big Tea
67
User avatar
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Big Tea » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:27 am

Bill wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:45 am
Racing point and Mclaren has these cape so what s so magical about it
I think their secret weapon here was the suspension. Other cars looked as if they were jilting over some curbs while the Ferrari sailed serenely on with all rubber on the ground.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions