2015 Hungarian Grand Prix - 24-26 July

[MGJohn]

'The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is stimulated by passion and internal will.' - Sebastian Vettel

Your signature bottom line....

Did Vettel really say that? Cannot remember ever seeing of hearing that before. Maybe he said it in another language not English. Impressive wisdom from one so young.

Back on track ..

Really enjoyed the action in Hungary on Sunday after so many anticipating another non-event which I half believed may have come to pass. How wrong we were. However, with the surprise of both Williams passing both Mercedes with ease at the start in a previous race, I suspected the Ferraris may do the same with the longish run up to the first turn at Hungary. With that in mind I had a few quid Joke bet on Vettel to lead at the end of Lap 1 @ 12-1 and so it proved with the possibility of hanging on for the win. Had it not been for SC ( Safety Car ) deployment, I suspect no hanging on would be the case ... the win margin could have been larger... who knows? Hard to say ...

So, how was the Ferrari form at Hungary? Genuine improvement of race pace or flash in the pan? Time and again Safety Car creates a false result and that could be true with this race with so many aspects. The SC could have falsely enhanced or disguised the true performance of say both McLarens which produced points for both cars. True improvement of form or a false impression? Hard to say. How did others see it?

Very disappointed to see the "racing incident" between DR and NR with a few laps to go. Spoilt the race end and result in my view. Reading here and threads on other sites, I'm apparently in the minority in apportioning most of the blame for that on the likeable Aussie ... say 70-30. I strongly suspect Rosberg is merely guilty of thinking he was clearly fully past the Aussie's car and that was his mistake. He should have made it a certainty but, possibly could not do so on that line at that speed to give more room.

I have the feeling that despite team RB's obviously favouring Ricciardo over Kvyat so far,witness at least twice to my knowledge, Kvyat has been instructed to move over for his teamate. Maybe more we're not informed about, Kvyat must be giving Ricciardo something to think about. All good grist for the F1 mill.

I for one have to admire Red Bull's schooling and coaching of their young unknown drivers. Vettel, Ricciardo and Kvyat of course but their sister team has produced some good talent too and look set to produce yet more good young 'ns this season too.

Biggest disappointment for me ?> ... such a long wait til my next F1 "fix".

Spa Francochamps ... bring it on.

Will Ferrari confirm again improved race pace? Are those McLarens really begining to make decent performance progress ... up the grid? Will the two Mercedes drivers again be slow off the mark? Really hope so purely in the interests of making it more of a race and less of a procession... many possibilities ..

[Sevach]

We know Vettel was faster than Rosberg the entire race, stint 1, obviously stint 2, and even stint 3.
Yes even stint 3, although much closer than on the previous stints, on tires that push the balance towards a Mercedes a bit, Rosberg couldn't stay in Vettel's DRS zone and was dropping back.

No he wasn't.

From the fia site: http://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-1 ... ormation-9

Gaps between Vettel and Rosberg:
Lap 47: Gap 1.677 (with Kimi in between)
Lap 48: Gap 1.247 (with Kimi in between)
Lap 49: Gap 1.266
Lap 50: Gap 1.221
Lap 51: Gap 1.417
Lap 52: Gap 1.239
Lap 53: Gap 0.888
Lap 54: Gap 1.078
Lap 55: Gap 1.290
Lap 56: Gap 1.370
Lap 57: Gap 1.444 (Gap to Ricciardo under 2 seconds)
Lap 58: Gap 1.274
Lap 59: Gap 1.288
Lap 60: Gap 1.231
Lap 61: Gap 1.310
Lap 62: Gap 1.018
Lap 63: Gap 1.425
Lap 64: Collision Ric & Ros

Seems very consistent to me, despite Ricciardo continuously closing up to Rosberg. In fact not less consistent than when Hamilton was following Ricciardo midway through the race, couldn't get by, but eventually pulled it off and started to drive off in to distance. The dirty air is masking the performance that the Mercedes clearly had, even in Rosbergs hands when both were on the prime tire.

Anyway - this is what James Allen posted on his blog:

For Mercedes, the Hungarian GP was still potentially winnable at this stage; as Hamilton was the fastest car on track when running in clean air.

First stint:
Vettel started doing mid 1.28s, which improved to low 1.28s. Hamilton in traffic was doing 1.30s. When in clear air, Hamilton was doing 1.27.7 - 1.27.9 (lap 16, lap 17, lap 18), while Vettel at that point was doing 1.27.9, 1.28.2, 1.28.7. On average losing 5 tenths per lap. At this point, Ferrari couldn't be sure what Mercedes was doing.

Another example:
When Vettel pitted for options for his medium stint (lap 22), he was doing 1.27.3s on new tires. That gradually increased to high 1.27s. When Hamilton was in clear air (lap 29 +), he was doing low 1.27s on, at that point, older tires (he came in lap 20) and ones that were likely compromised by having to drive in dirty air and overtake aggressively. At that point, Vettel had no reason not to push or use the tires according to their advantage.

We can disagree to agree on the premise that you think Ferrari didn't run their maximum pace, but neither did Mercedes (in the hands of Rosberg). And Hamiltons pace was compromised due to dirty air etc, but despite that, when he was in clear air, he showed a pace (on old compromised tires) that was faster than both Ferraris.

Consistent with Hamilton/Ricciardo?
That's got be a joke, Hamilton was on Ricciardo DRS zone every lap, Rosberg got there once, and the one time he almost managed to get back to it (lap 62) was because Vettel had to pass a Manor, the next lap the difference is immediatelly back to where it was, a bit larger even.

Even if Rosberg knew it was diffcult to get past, it would've been in his best interests to be in Vettel DRS zone and he couldn't keep it there.

Stint 1 that's a very biased, and misleading, sample.
Hamilton gets past Perez lap 13.

Ham Vet
13- 1:28:559 1:28:183
14- 1:28:141 1:28:206
15- 1:28:115 1:28:071
16- 1:27:679 1:27:913
17- 1:27:862 1:28:184
18- 1:27:961 1:28:748 (Vettel has Manor car 28 as traffic, Vettel next lap is 28.288 )

The only lap Hamilton is .5 or more faster is because of traffic, otherwise nowhere near that.


Stint 2, Hamilton does put 4 very fast laps after getting rid of Ricciardo (who was the only overtake he did on those tires), from laps 30 to 33 all low 27s and high 26s, while Vettel is consistently high 27s and 28 dead.

But after this small run his pace drops to the same high 27s low 28s, from laps 34-37(no traffic here), and after that he dropped hard, he was in traffic(overtook 3 cars in four laps Nasr, Ericsson, Maldonado) in most of those laps true but even in the lap he didn't overtake anyone he makes a 28.571 (lap 39).

3 or 4 blistering laps isn't the ultimate proof of race pace, and it's open to discussion wether Vettel was even pushing at that point, looking at the tv i have tp say that Hamilton sure looked a lot more ragged around the track.

The bottom line is he did 4 laps that were much faster, 4 laps that were more or less equal and 4 that were much slower (yes traffic) but back to square one in the end.

It's complete crap to look at those 4 fast laps and make such call.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

We know Vettel was faster than Rosberg the entire race, stint 1, obviously stint 2, and even stint 3.
Yes even stint 3, although much closer than on the previous stints, on tires that push the balance towards a Mercedes a bit, Rosberg couldn't stay in Vettel's DRS zone and was dropping back.

No he wasn't.

From the fia site: http://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-1 ... ormation-9

Gaps between Vettel and Rosberg:
Lap 47: Gap 1.677 (with Kimi in between)
Lap 48: Gap 1.247 (with Kimi in between)
Lap 49: Gap 1.266
Lap 50: Gap 1.221
Lap 51: Gap 1.417
Lap 52: Gap 1.239
Lap 53: Gap 0.888
Lap 54: Gap 1.078
Lap 55: Gap 1.290
Lap 56: Gap 1.370
Lap 57: Gap 1.444 (Gap to Ricciardo under 2 seconds)
Lap 58: Gap 1.274
Lap 59: Gap 1.288
Lap 60: Gap 1.231
Lap 61: Gap 1.310
Lap 62: Gap 1.018
Lap 63: Gap 1.425
Lap 64: Collision Ric & Ros

Seems very consistent to me, despite Ricciardo continuously closing up to Rosberg. In fact not less consistent than when Hamilton was following Ricciardo midway through the race, couldn't get by, but eventually pulled it off and started to drive off in to distance. The dirty air is masking the performance that the Mercedes clearly had, even in Rosbergs hands when both were on the prime tire.

Anyway - this is what James Allen posted on his blog:

For Mercedes, the Hungarian GP was still potentially winnable at this stage; as Hamilton was the fastest car on track when running in clean air.

First stint:
Vettel started doing mid 1.28s, which improved to low 1.28s. Hamilton in traffic was doing 1.30s. When in clear air, Hamilton was doing 1.27.7 - 1.27.9 (lap 16, lap 17, lap 18), while Vettel at that point was doing 1.27.9, 1.28.2, 1.28.7. On average losing 5 tenths per lap. At this point, Ferrari couldn't be sure what Mercedes was doing.

Another example:
When Vettel pitted for options for his medium stint (lap 22), he was doing 1.27.3s on new tires. That gradually increased to high 1.27s. When Hamilton was in clear air (lap 29 +), he was doing low 1.27s on, at that point, older tires (he came in lap 20) and ones that were likely compromised by having to drive in dirty air and overtake aggressively. At that point, Vettel had no reason not to push or use the tires according to their advantage.

We can disagree to agree on the premise that you think Ferrari didn't run their maximum pace, but neither did Mercedes (in the hands of Rosberg). And Hamiltons pace was compromised due to dirty air etc, but despite that, when he was in clear air, he showed a pace (on old compromised tires) that was faster than both Ferraris.

Consistent with Hamilton/Ricciardo?
That's got be a joke, Hamilton was on Ricciardo DRS zone every lap, Rosberg got there once, and the one time he almost managed to get back to it (lap 62) was because Vettel had to pass a Manor, the next lap the difference is immediatelly back to where it was, a bit larger even.

Even if Rosberg knew it was diffcult to get past, it would've been in his best interests to be in Vettel DRS zone and he couldn't keep it there.

Stint 1 that's a very biased, and misleading, sample.
Hamilton gets past Perez lap 13.

Ham Vet
13- 1:28:559 1:28:183
14- 1:28:141 1:28:206
15- 1:28:115 1:28:071
16- 1:27:679 1:27:913
17- 1:27:862 1:28:184
18- 1:27:961 1:28:748 (Vettel has Manor car 28 as traffic, Vettel next lap is 28.288 )

The only lap Hamilton is .5 or more faster is because of traffic, otherwise nowhere near that.


Stint 2, Hamilton does put 4 very fast laps after getting rid of Ricciardo (who was the only overtake he did on those tires), from laps 30 to 33 all low 27s and high 26s, while Vettel is consistently high 27s and 28 dead.

But after this small run his pace drops to the same high 27s low 28s, from laps 34-37(no traffic here), and after that he dropped hard, he was in traffic(overtook 3 cars in four laps Nasr, Ericsson, Maldonado) in most of those laps true but even in the lap he didn't overtake anyone he makes a 28.571 (lap 39).

3 or 4 blistering laps isn't the ultimate proof of race pace, and it's open to discussion wether Vettel was even pushing at that point, looking at the tv i have tp say that Hamilton sure looked a lot more ragged around the track.

The bottom line is he did 4 laps that were much faster, 4 laps that were more or less equal and 4 that were much slower (yes traffic) but back to square one in the end.

It's complete crap to look at those 4 fast laps and make such call.

Meh..... despite knowing Ferrari is a slower car than Mercedes, all over the year and on all tracks, you are still fighting hard to debate how Ferrari was FASTER, YEAH HELL FASTER than Mercs and even if Mercs would have been right behind from Lap 1, they wouldn't have won? It's totally a stupid exercise to compare a leading car running in clean air and a car fighting in the middle pack, destroying tires, using more fuel, adding a lot of heat into the PU, excursion on sand traps that MAY have done tiny bit of damage to overall aerodynamics.
I also pity how a lot of people here who think that if a car is stuck behind another and fails to overtake despite having DRS, that means the chasing car is slower, period. Atleast here @Sevach is trying to prove that Hamilton's time was faster because he was having DRS advantage. Given a choice, every single of the drivers on the grid wants to be in clean air and DEFINITELY not want a DRS drama on tracks like Monaco, Barcelona and Hungary, to be faster.
Please stop this nonsense of comparing their times and trying to prove a point, which is not there.

[Phil]

Fair enough. Just to be clear; The sample wasn't meant to be biased, perhaps a bit limited. I don't have the broadcast running side by side, only the history lap sheet.

It's complete crap to look at those 4 fast laps and make such call.

Anyway So I'm guessing you think Ferrari had more pace in hand than what they showed. As I said; stint 2, I agree - due to the margin over the closest rival from another team, he could have been driving with more margin. Comparing stint 2 with another car is difficult anyway, because there is no one comparable (besides Hamilton further back) who was on the same tires.

Stint 1; I think is very representative for the reasons I named (and you've been ignoring): Vettel/Ferrari didn't at that point know what Mercedes were doing. The gap from Rosberg to Vettel is slightly exaggerated due to Kimi being in the middle. We also need to bear in mind that Ferrari likely knew they would struggle more on the harder compound tire, so again - Vettel/Ferrari had every reason to push and create a gap, not least because it wasn't clear if Kimi was actually allowed to race him.

In the sample you yourself just posted; Hamilton between lap 13 to 18 Hamilton was quicker (I am trusting you posted representative laps). Even if we consider the impact that Manor had and substract half a second, on that particular lap, Hamilton was still quicker by 3 tenths than Vettel on his next lap (the 28.288 one). This is comparing Vettel in absolute clear air since the first corner of the race vs Hamilton with compromised tires (remember; He also left the track and had dirty tires that must of had some impact in one form or another).

So we can conclude; That Mercedes would have been likely quicker (maybe just, but still quicker) all else considered. On a heavy car, identical tires. So why exactly wouldn't he be also quicker on a slightly lighter car in supposedly stint 2 if both were pushing similarly?

Last stint - again; Rosberg was clearly held up by Vettel. He may not have gotten into Sebs DRS zone successfully that many times, but the gap was too consistent and even at that 1 second gap, he is still driving in Sebs dirty air which we know has a definite impact on the stability of a car. So we can conclude that a car running in clear air (Seb at that point) has a slight advantage pace wise. Anyway, this is just Rosberg, who we already established was napping/struggling for most part of the race. And he too could hold the pace of that Ferrari on the prime tires.

You still think that like for like, that Ferrari was quicker?

[Chene_Mostert]

No he wasn't.

From the fia site: http://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-1 ... ormation-9

Gaps between Vettel and Rosberg:
Lap 47: Gap 1.677 (with Kimi in between)
Lap 48: Gap 1.247 (with Kimi in between)
Lap 49: Gap 1.266
Lap 50: Gap 1.221
Lap 51: Gap 1.417
Lap 52: Gap 1.239
Lap 53: Gap 0.888
Lap 54: Gap 1.078
Lap 55: Gap 1.290
Lap 56: Gap 1.370
Lap 57: Gap 1.444 (Gap to Ricciardo under 2 seconds)
Lap 58: Gap 1.274
Lap 59: Gap 1.288
Lap 60: Gap 1.231
Lap 61: Gap 1.310
Lap 62: Gap 1.018
Lap 63: Gap 1.425
Lap 64: Collision Ric & Ros

Seems very consistent to me, despite Ricciardo continuously closing up to Rosberg. In fact not less consistent than when Hamilton was following Ricciardo midway through the race, couldn't get by, but eventually pulled it off and started to drive off in to distance. The dirty air is masking the performance that the Mercedes clearly had, even in Rosbergs hands when both were on the prime tire.

Anyway - this is what James Allen posted on his blog:

For Mercedes, the Hungarian GP was still potentially winnable at this stage; as Hamilton was the fastest car on track when running in clean air.

First stint:
Vettel started doing mid 1.28s, which improved to low 1.28s. Hamilton in traffic was doing 1.30s. When in clear air, Hamilton was doing 1.27.7 - 1.27.9 (lap 16, lap 17, lap 18), while Vettel at that point was doing 1.27.9, 1.28.2, 1.28.7. On average losing 5 tenths per lap. At this point, Ferrari couldn't be sure what Mercedes was doing.

Another example:
When Vettel pitted for options for his medium stint (lap 22), he was doing 1.27.3s on new tires. That gradually increased to high 1.27s. When Hamilton was in clear air (lap 29 +), he was doing low 1.27s on, at that point, older tires (he came in lap 20) and ones that were likely compromised by having to drive in dirty air and overtake aggressively. At that point, Vettel had no reason not to push or use the tires according to their advantage.

We can disagree to agree on the premise that you think Ferrari didn't run their maximum pace, but neither did Mercedes (in the hands of Rosberg). And Hamiltons pace was compromised due to dirty air etc, but despite that, when he was in clear air, he showed a pace (on old compromised tires) that was faster than both Ferraris.

Consistent with Hamilton/Ricciardo?
That's got be a joke, Hamilton was on Ricciardo DRS zone every lap, Rosberg got there once, and the one time he almost managed to get back to it (lap 62) was because Vettel had to pass a Manor, the next lap the difference is immediatelly back to where it was, a bit larger even.

Even if Rosberg knew it was diffcult to get past, it would've been in his best interests to be in Vettel DRS zone and he couldn't keep it there.

Stint 1 that's a very biased, and misleading, sample.
Hamilton gets past Perez lap 13.

Ham Vet
13- 1:28:559 1:28:183
14- 1:28:141 1:28:206
15- 1:28:115 1:28:071
16- 1:27:679 1:27:913
17- 1:27:862 1:28:184
18- 1:27:961 1:28:748 (Vettel has Manor car 28 as traffic, Vettel next lap is 28.288 )

The only lap Hamilton is .5 or more faster is because of traffic, otherwise nowhere near that.


Stint 2, Hamilton does put 4 very fast laps after getting rid of Ricciardo (who was the only overtake he did on those tires), from laps 30 to 33 all low 27s and high 26s, while Vettel is consistently high 27s and 28 dead.

But after this small run his pace drops to the same high 27s low 28s, from laps 34-37(no traffic here), and after that he dropped hard, he was in traffic(overtook 3 cars in four laps Nasr, Ericsson, Maldonado) in most of those laps true but even in the lap he didn't overtake anyone he makes a 28.571 (lap 39).

3 or 4 blistering laps isn't the ultimate proof of race pace, and it's open to discussion wether Vettel was even pushing at that point, looking at the tv i have tp say that Hamilton sure looked a lot more ragged around the track.

The bottom line is he did 4 laps that were much faster, 4 laps that were more or less equal and 4 that were much slower (yes traffic) but back to square one in the end.

It's complete crap to look at those 4 fast laps and make such call.[/quote]
Meh..... despite knowing Ferrari is a slower car than Mercedes, all over the year and on all tracks, you are still fighting hard to debate how Ferrari was FASTER, YEAH HELL FASTER than Mercs and even if Mercs would have been right behind from Lap 1, they wouldn't have won? It's totally a stupid exercise to compare a leading car running in clean air and a car fighting in the middle pack, destroying tires, using more fuel, adding a lot of heat into the PU, excursion on sand traps that MAY have done tiny bit of damage to overall aerodynamics.
I also pity how a lot of people here who think that if a car is stuck behind another and fails to overtake despite having DRS, that means the chasing car is slower, period. Atleast here @Sevach is trying to prove that Hamilton's time was faster because he was having DRS advantage. Given a choice, every single of the drivers on the grid wants to be in clean air and DEFINITELY not want a DRS drama on tracks like Monaco, Barcelona and Hungary, to be faster.
Please stop this nonsense of comparing their times and trying to prove a point, which is not there.[/quote]

Very exhausting list of excuses you have posted here. Also you need to decide now in the last stint was Ros faster on Primes or was he struggling? The excuses are being made up as you go along?
From green light to chequered flag Ferrari completed the race in a shorter time than Mercedes. That is ultimately the idea behind racing.
So at the 2015 Hungarian GP Ferrari was the quickest. And at no point during the race dit Mercedes manage to significantly reduce the gap and be in a position to attempt an overtake even when on the "better" tyre.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Code: Select all

[quote="GPR-A"]

No he wasn't.

From the fia site: http://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-1-world-championship/season-2015/event-timing-information-9

Gaps between Vettel and Rosberg:
Lap 47: Gap 1.677 (with Kimi in between)
Lap 48: Gap 1.247 (with Kimi in between)
Lap 49: Gap 1.266
Lap 50: Gap 1.221
Lap 51: Gap 1.417
Lap 52: Gap 1.239
Lap 53: Gap 0.888
Lap 54: Gap 1.078
Lap 55: Gap 1.290
Lap 56: Gap 1.370
Lap 57: Gap 1.444 (Gap to Ricciardo under 2 seconds)
Lap 58: Gap 1.274
Lap 59: Gap 1.288
Lap 60: Gap 1.231
Lap 61: Gap 1.310
Lap 62: Gap 1.018
Lap 63: Gap 1.425
Lap 64: Collision Ric & Ros

Seems very consistent to me, despite Ricciardo continuously closing up to Rosberg. In fact not less consistent than when Hamilton was following Ricciardo midway through the race, couldn't get by, but eventually pulled it off and started to drive off in to distance. The dirty air is masking the performance that the Mercedes clearly had, even in Rosbergs hands when both were on the prime tire.

Anyway - this is what James Allen posted on his blog:

[quote="James Allen"]For Mercedes, the Hungarian GP was still potentially winnable at this stage; as Hamilton was the fastest car on track when running in clean air.[/quote]

First stint:
Vettel started doing mid 1.28s, which improved to low 1.28s. Hamilton in traffic was doing 1.30s. When in clear air, Hamilton was doing 1.27.7 - 1.27.9 (lap 16, lap 17, lap 18), while Vettel at that point was doing 1.27.9, 1.28.2, 1.28.7. On average losing 5 tenths per lap. At this point, Ferrari couldn't be sure what Mercedes was doing. 

Another example:
When Vettel pitted for options for his medium stint (lap 22), he was doing 1.27.3s on new tires. That gradually increased to high 1.27s. When Hamilton was in clear air (lap 29 +), he was doing low 1.27s on, at that point, older tires (he came in lap 20) and ones that were likely compromised by having to drive in dirty air and overtake aggressively. At that point, Vettel had no reason not to push or use the tires according to their advantage.

We can disagree to agree on the premise that you think Ferrari didn't run their maximum pace, but neither did Mercedes (in the hands of Rosberg). And Hamiltons pace was compromised due to dirty air etc, but despite that, when he was in clear air, he showed a pace (on old compromised tires) that was faster than both Ferraris.[/quote]


Consistent with Hamilton/Ricciardo? 
That's got be a joke, Hamilton was on Ricciardo DRS zone every lap, Rosberg got there once, and the one time he almost managed to get back to it (lap 62) was because Vettel had to pass a Manor, the next lap the difference is immediatelly back to where it was, a bit larger even. 

Even if Rosberg knew it was diffcult to get past, it would've been in his best interests to be in Vettel DRS zone and he couldn't keep it there.

Stint 1 that's a very biased, and misleading, sample.
Hamilton gets past Perez lap 13.

          Ham             Vet
13- 1:28:559       1:28:183
14- 1:28:141       1:28:206
15- 1:28:115       1:28:071
16- 1:27:679       1:27:913
17- 1:27:862       1:28:184
18- 1:27:961       1:28:748 (Vettel has Manor car 28 as traffic, Vettel next lap is 28.288 )

The only lap Hamilton is .5 or more faster is because of traffic, otherwise nowhere near that.


Stint 2, Hamilton does put 4 very fast laps after getting rid of Ricciardo (who was the only overtake he did on those tires), from laps 30 to 33 all low 27s and high 26s, while Vettel is consistently high 27s and 28 dead.

But after this small run his pace drops to the same high 27s low 28s, from laps 34-37(no traffic here), and after that he dropped hard, he was in traffic(overtook 3 cars in four laps Nasr, Ericsson, Maldonado) in most of those laps true but even in the lap he didn't overtake anyone he makes a 28.571 (lap 39).

3 or 4 blistering laps isn't the ultimate proof of race pace, and it's open to discussion wether Vettel was even pushing at that point, looking at the tv i have tp say that Hamilton sure looked a lot more ragged around the track.

The bottom line is he did 4 laps that were much faster, 4 laps that were more or less equal and 4 that were much slower (yes traffic) but back to square one in the end.

It's complete crap to look at those 4 fast laps and make such call.[/quote]
Meh..... despite knowing Ferrari is a slower car than Mercedes, all over the year and on all tracks, you are still fighting hard to debate how Ferrari was FASTER, YEAH HELL FASTER than Mercs and even if Mercs would have been right behind from Lap 1, they wouldn't have won?  It's totally a stupid exercise to compare a leading car running in clean air and a car fighting in the middle pack, destroying tires, using more fuel, adding a lot of heat into the PU, excursion on sand traps that MAY have done tiny bit of damage to overall aerodynamics.  
I also pity how a lot of people here who think that if a car is stuck behind another and fails to overtake despite having DRS, that means the chasing car is slower, period.  Atleast here @Sevach is trying to prove that Hamilton's time was faster because he was having DRS advantage.  :D  Given a choice, every single of the drivers on the grid wants to be in clean air and DEFINITELY not want a DRS drama on tracks like Monaco, Barcelona and Hungary, to be faster.
Please stop this nonsense of comparing their times and trying to prove a point, which is not there.[/quote]

Very exhausting list of excuses you have posted here. Also you need to decide now in the last stint was Ros faster on Primes or was he struggling? The excuses are being made up as you go along? 
From green light to chequered flag Ferrari completed the race in a shorter time than Mercedes. That is ultimately the idea behind racing.
So at the 2015 Hungarian GP Ferrari was the quickest. And at no point during the race dit Mercedes manage to significantly reduce the gap and be in a position to attempt an overtake even when on the "better" tyre.

Oh my God, I missed you so much and your FORTUNE TELLING. I guess Ferrari's didn't gave you much opportunity to come back pumping up I guess.

GPR-A
I do not see the points above being any more hypothetical than your "numbers" that fail to compare like for like.
Reality is Ferrari had the pace to put Merc under pressure and they had the pace to finish ahead of Merc in the race.
None of your hypothetical excuses can change the actual outcome. They needed to be faster than Ferrari to finish ahead which they did not do.
Guess you will have to start supporting Ferrari as they WILL challenge for wins this season. Evidence of this was clear as from the first day of pre season testing. Go check the "numbers"

NO. I still don't support and they ARE NOT CHALLENGING for wins this season. They are picking up scraps just as yet.

From green light to chequered flag Ferrari completed the race in a shorter time than Mercedes. That is ultimately the idea behind racing.

And I wonder why they haven't done that in 8 of 10 races this year. Guess what, that is why Mercedes is leading the Championship !!! Back then in Malaysian GP also I challenged that, if you only look at the results, leaving out all that really happened, you will continue to deceive yourself and deceiving is what you are doing. I don't think if there is anyone who can bet that the Ferrari can repeat their Hungary performance, ON MERIT, in Spa. Do you? If not, you also know that was the truth of Hungary.

[Chene_Mostert]

Not worried about Spa. Totally different track.
At the 2015 Hungarian GP Ferrari managed to complete the race faster than Mercedes.
The Mercedes "poor" start is also just a myth... Another excuse, Ferrari just made a better start, look at their start in relation to the whole field.
Seems to me the "secret" to the Mercedes pace is clean air...

[MGJohn]

>> much snipped <<

I don't think if there is anyone who can bet that the Ferrari can repeat their Hungary performance, ON MERIT, in Spa. Do you? If not, you also know that was the truth of Hungary.

I think that.

Still quite possible even ON MERIT. After all few if any expected them to win on merit last weekend, but, in my opinion they did.

I shall play up a few quid of my winnings on Vettel's Lap 1 lead @ 12-1 and the win @ 22-1 in Hungary. No good for small stakes punters lumping on Hamilton at skinny mean odds of 2-5 or 4-11 for the win. Those odds may attract the professional punter who bet big time but, I'm not one of those and never will be. I just like to be proved right now and again.

In fact I've already done so as Vettel is 11-1 for the win in Belgium with some on-line bookies. Not bad odds because It is just possible that the Ferrari's race pace and quick off the mark performance has genuinely improved so who knows.

As previously explained earlier in this thread, with the spectacle of BOTH Williams easily passing both Mercedes in the previous race from the start on the run up to the first bend, I more than half expected a repeat with Ferrari this time. So it proved. There's a shorter run to the first next event. With the introduction of the Clutch changes there is no previous form to rely on.... unknown quantity. Plus we saw a re-emergence of the old Hot-Head-Hamilton on Sunday so if there's a repeat ...

There again, a return to his more recent far more mature approach seems more likely resulting a return to the same Mercedes-Benz dominance we've witnessed for most of this season and last.

In any event, it's Motor Racing and I have never been bored with that since the days I watched Fangio and Moss in their Silver Arrows as a small boy back in the 1950s. What goes around comes around ...Hey nearly a pun. Yes, even if there's a repeat Mercedes-Benz procession I will not be bored. There again, I find the cars, their technical aspects and the racing far more interesting than the personalities involved which modern media appear to concentrate on rather than that which interests me.

Witness BBC no longer using folks like "semi-retired racing car designer" Gary Anderson. Always enjoyed his input. BBC appear to excel and getting far too many things quite simply wrong in recent years. Their 50% reduction of F1 coverage is just one aspect of that. Their loss as well as ours.

[Andres125sx]

Boohooo evil Marko and Verstappen threatening poor Carlos, but I am not surprised to see this kind of reactions after some Spanish articles about Verstappen paying money and more bullshit.

You must know better than me, since I don´t read spanish media related to F1. Just in case you didn´t get it, you´re wrong.

Verstappen was faster the whole weekend

What GP are you talking about???

FP1: Sainz faster
FP2: Sainz faster
FP3: Sainz faster
Q: Verstappen faster
Race: much better start for Sainz, overtaking Max and 3 more cars


Then the team gift an undercut to Max instead of favouring their car in front...

But it´s the spanish media who write BS... not as much as yourself I´m afraid.

maybe Carlos should be more concerned about the fact that a 17y old with only his second year in a car is giving him a run for his money.

Maybe he should be more concerned about his team and car. His team favouring his team mate, and his car failing to finish the last 3 races in a row

I recorded the race and tonight I watched it again, and I must correct myself at one point

Sainz didn´t overtake 4 cars at the start, it was Max who lost 4 positions

Grid: Verstappen 9th Sainz 12th

After first two corners: Verstappen 13th Sainz 11th, with Sainz passing his team mate in first corner at the outside =D>

Then Hamilton went out and re-joined the track just in front of Sainz, with Alonso behind and then Verstappen. The 11 laps Hamilton was behind Massa Sainz also was in DRS distance from Hamilton. Meanwhile Verstappen passed Alonso so he was behind Sainz. Then Hamilton passed Massa and from that point positions didn´t change until first pitstop with Sainz in DRS distance from Massa and Verstappen in DRS distance from Sainz.

So Sainz was held in traffic the whole stint, with a car less than one second in front constantly (first Hamilton for 11 laps and then Massa for around 6 laps), but Verstappen complained like if Sainz was in clean air and he was faster... The team bought the complain and even when the car in front was Sainz, and Sainz had been faster in all FPs, and he earned the position on track overtaking his team mate at the start, they gave preference to Verstappen


If someone really think this was the best strategy for STR, please explain, because I fail to see any logic apart from favouring who Marko called new Senna

[notsofast]

Was anyone directly behind Verstappen? Maybe STR wanted to keep someone else from getting the undercut on Verstappen?

[Andres125sx]

Alonso, but it wouldn´t make too much sense since he was able to pass him on track. That´s a good point tough, because Massa (the car ahead of both) was penalized with a 5 seconds penalty so they may think both drivers will pass him so defending from Alonso might be worth.

But if that was the case, to protect Max from Alonso they put Sainz behind Alonso

[Schuttelberg]

'The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is stimulated by passion and internal will.' - Sebastian Vettel

Your signature bottom line....

Did Vettel really say that? Cannot remember ever seeing of hearing that before. Maybe he said it in another language not English. Impressive wisdom from one so young.

Actually, I stumbled upon a fellow Vettel fan called 'Vettelholic' on another platform who basically follows even Vettel's sleeping hours. He has this page of his famous quotes. I wanted to clarify it so I googled it. Came across this :

http://isportsweb.com/2014/06/12/f1-fas ... an-vettel/

Felt quite inspired by it and so I decided to keep it. It suits his personality as well.

[komninosm]

Rosberg-Ricciardo is no different to these imo - ignore the dive up the inside, the collision was nothing to do with that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37qZKH3P7X4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPd7NJ2StRE

Skip to 1:16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6GLT5VdWH8

Now, on the basis that Ricciardo is wrong, Stevens, Kobayashi and Button are all wrong and should have braked.

Those vids show collisions in the breaking zone, not on the turn exit, which is totally different...

[George-Jung]

If someone really think this was the best strategy for STR, please explain, because I fail to see any logic apart from favouring who Marko called new Senna

Sainz DNF, so it doesn't matter how you look at it..
This was the best strategy.

Besides that, it is not inly Marko who is impressed by Verstappen..

[Andres125sx]

If someone really think this was the best strategy for STR, please explain, because I fail to see any logic apart from favouring who Marko called new Senna

Sainz DNF, so it doesn't matter how you look at it..
This was the best strategy.

Besides that, it is not inly Marko who is impressed by Verstappen..

Yes highsight is great, but looking at STR strategy for first pitstop it´s obvious they did the contrary to what teams usually do, stop his driver behind first (Verstappen)

BTW, I´m also impressed by Verstappen, the worst you will ever read from me is he´s too young or he has made some rookie mistakes, what is normal, the kid is really good.

But that does not change reality, Sainz is matching his perfomance consistently when not being faster and deserve a more fair treatment.