2016 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 08-10 July

[Phil]

When will people finally realize that comparing driver x from era y in car z with driver a, in era b or y and in car c will never represent a level playing field; e.g. it's never apples vs apples.

F1 is a team sport.

And that *team* is fricking big.

Oh and just_a_fan = wow what a post! +1

[ringo]

Hamilton is the only driver to have won at least one race in every year of his F1 career. His rate of finishing races on the podium (53%) or finishing in the points (80%) is also better than anyone in the modern era (Schumacher, Prost and Senna included). His points finishing rate is second only to Fangio who scored points 82% of the time! Vettel is 2-3% behind Hamilton in both of those metrics. Hamilton's done that whilst sharing the garage with two different world champions and a driver who beat (an admittedly older) Schumacher three seasons in a row.

You may not like Hamilton but you can't deny he's been very effective in his career to date - even in his nadir year of 2011, when he did everything he could to torpedo himself, he still won a 3 races.

Stats means nothing in F1

To me the three greats are indeed greats, but my rating has changed during past seasons. I struggled to accept Vettel in this group, but he´s proved to deserve it. OTOH Lewis has proved to be not too reliable, he mekes more mistakes than he should. And Alonso is hard to judge on a McLaren, his seasons in red proved he´s one of the greatest of all times, but now I´m not sure if he still keep same hungry.

I see Lewis like one of those who can be fastest on grid, but need to be in good mood. Alonso is the opposite, maybe not the fastest but he´s a clock, always at same pace. I see Vettel something in between

Vettel got his ass whooped by Ricciardo, who is now struggling against an 18 year old. As i said, Hamilton has done it all and more. Neither vettel nor Alonso have fought with a WDC in his prime and won. Alonso and Vettel have just got a demotivated Kimi to beat up on.

[ChrisDanger]

They're all good drivers. We can split hairs and compare apples with entropy until the latter reaches infinity but it doesn't really accomplish anything. No one will ever be "right".

[Just_a_fan]

@the_table: Lots of drivers have been in good cars and not been winners...

[The_table]

@the_table: Lots of drivers have been in good cars and not been winners...

Indeed .... not sure what that has to do with what i said.
Of course the car isn't everything but i'm pretty sure Hamilton would not have the same stats if he started in a Minardi...

Don't get me wrong he is one of the greatest, there is no doubt but comparing him to people who did not have a car capable of winning races from the very beginning is kinda unfair in my opinion.

[ds.raikkonen]

(He has also never been in a REALLY bad car wich helps a lot.(ie: Alonso in the last two years.)

Exactly, and when he didn't have the best car i.e. 2009-2013, he didn't fair any better than others in similar conditions-13 wins and finishing 4th/5th in the championship. 2012 was much better for him though.

[Andres125sx]

Hamilton is the only driver to have won at least one race in every year of his F1 career. His rate of finishing races on the podium (53%) or finishing in the points (80%) is also better than anyone in the modern era (Schumacher, Prost and Senna included). His points finishing rate is second only to Fangio who scored points 82% of the time! Vettel is 2-3% behind Hamilton in both of those metrics. Hamilton's done that whilst sharing the garage with two different world champions and a driver who beat (an admittedly older) Schumacher three seasons in a row.

You may not like Hamilton but you can't deny he's been very effective in his career to date - even in his nadir year of 2011, when he did everything he could to torpedo himself, he still won a 3 races.

Stats means nothing in F1

To me the three greats are indeed greats, but my rating has changed during past seasons. I struggled to accept Vettel in this group, but he´s proved to deserve it. OTOH Lewis has proved to be not too reliable, he mekes more mistakes than he should. And Alonso is hard to judge on a McLaren, his seasons in red proved he´s one of the greatest of all times, but now I´m not sure if he still keep same hungry.

I see Lewis like one of those who can be fastest on grid, but need to be in good mood. Alonso is the opposite, maybe not the fastest but he´s a clock, always at same pace. I see Vettel something in between

Vettel got his ass whooped by Ricciardo, who is now struggling against an 18 year old. As i said, Hamilton has done it all and more. Neither vettel nor Alonso have fought with a WDC in his prime and won. Alonso and Vettel have just got a demotivated Kimi to beat up on.

No driver on current grid has had as tough team mates as Alonso. Only taking into account WDC he´s fought with Kimi, Button and Hamilton, apart from Villeneuve who can´t be count too seriously, and some other strong drivers like Trulli, Fisicho, Massa, Grosjean... Only past season, due to Honda failures and pre-season accident, his team mate (Button) managed to score more points than Alonso. Even in 2007 with that huge support Lewis got from both his godfather (tire pressure mistakes, lights falling over Alonso´s car, allowing part of your team claiming against some other part of your team..) and FIA (cranes are allowed to put Lewis on track if he get stuck on gravel traps, steward decisions will be harsh with any Lewis competitor and soft with Lewis himself...) and even when he was Lewis (one of the greats), couldn´t score one more single point than Alonso.

BTW, IMHO that´s exactly the same situation Ricciardo is suffering right now. RBR is heavily biased towards Max. This is not any conspiracy theory, this is understanding about how F1 works. This is all about money, and if you can hype some driver to get fans attention, you´ll get more media coverage, more sponsors, more money, and more chances to win. McLaren did it with Lewis, Renault did it with Alonso, RBR did it with Vettel, and now again with Max. Mercedes is trying desperately with Nico too, but they can´t make up the huge difference between both drivers

Lewis has fought with Alonso and needed huge team support only to tie in points, and with Button he was evenly matched, first season for Lewis, second for Button (around 40 points differece both seasons) and third one for Lewis but with only 2 points advantage. Lewis had an edge, but not so big as some (me) would have expected.


So not sure what do you exactly mean, all of them have had tough team mates, Vettel not so much due to his age, but I can´t see how Lewis team mates have been any stronger than Alonso´s teammates. To me it´s exactly the opposite

[zeph]

What people don't like about Hamilton is that he is gobby and rappy and tattooed etc. He's arrogant and full of his own ability. He knows he's good and he's comfortable with it.

What he isn't is political. On the odd times he's tried to be, he's made a mess of it. Schuie, Prost, Alonso, Vettel are all examples of political drivers. They win as many races in the garage as on the track. Hamilton, like Senna and Mansell, just lets his driving do the talking, they're "ego drivers" if you will: their speed comes from their self belief. He's learnt to do that following 2011 and that change has been called "maturity" by some commentators. That's what makes Rosberg's job so difficult. Rosberg is a political driver too, in my opinion, and like Prost before him, he's finding it difficult to beat the "ego driver" on the other side of the garage.

I think this is incorrect. Hamilton, Mansell and Senna have all in their time displayed great political skill, particularly in intra-team matters.

Hell, Hamilton (and his dad) managed to get a double WDC fired from his team in his rookie year, Senna out-manoeuvred Prost who won the title but ended up leaving the team with which he had won all his titles (up until then). And Mansell charmed Patrick Head into backing him rather than Piquet, again a double WDC who was brought to the team to win another one.

I'm not passing judgement on who was right or wrong, but to say those drivers are non-political is hogwash, IMO. The only drivers that strike me as non-political (off the top of my head) are guys like Hakkinen and Raikkonen.

[Andres125sx]

To me the three greats are indeed greats, but my rating has changed during past seasons. I struggled to accept Vettel in this group, but he´s proved to deserve it. OTOH Lewis has proved to be not too reliable, he mekes more mistakes than he should.

The whole points per race and podia per race stats show he is actually extremely reliable.

Sorry but disagree, that stat only show he´s had very good cars his whole career.

For example, Alonso started with Minardi, so there he has several GPs without one single victory, podium or even points. Lewis start was with mclaren, fighting for victories and even the title in his very first season. Basically you´re comparing stats where the main difference is the car, like if they would be the evidence of driver talent difference. Obviously comparting Alonso´s results with Minardi and Lewis results with McLaren is comparing apples to oranges, or apples to a white whale , no possible comparison

Same with Vettel or even Max, some drivers are lucky enough to get a good car from the beginning, some don´t. Lucky or talent? Well, Alonso talent was out of doubt even before his Minardi days, ask Flavio about his very first F1 test, but none was willing to give him a good car. Senna is another example, he had to fight with a poor car at the beginning, while others had a much easier career.

Points, podiums, victories and titles depend too much on the car to make direct stat comparisons in f1. Apart from that, ignore them if you´re not Verstappen fan, he´ll destroy every record and they will be kept forever, as no driver will be able to drive a top car like him this season, with one and a half seasons experience, and only 18 years yet. There will be some other lucky guys making his debut on a top car, but since rules have changed to drive a top car with only 18 that will necessarily be his rookie season. Max has an edge over any other driver in future F1 history, if he´s as good as they say, he should destroy all records and keep them forever (if RBR can give him a good car, what seems a matter of time with the PU equalization), so if you´re willing to do comparisons based on stats, then I hope you´re a Max fan because according to stats, he will probably be best driver in F1 history soon, even if he´s not, but that´s how stats work in F1

[flickerf1]

Stats means nothing in F1

To me the three greats are indeed greats, but my rating has changed during past seasons. I struggled to accept Vettel in this group, but he´s proved to deserve it. OTOH Lewis has proved to be not too reliable, he mekes more mistakes than he should. And Alonso is hard to judge on a McLaren, his seasons in red proved he´s one of the greatest of all times, but now I´m not sure if he still keep same hungry.

I see Lewis like one of those who can be fastest on grid, but need to be in good mood. Alonso is the opposite, maybe not the fastest but he´s a clock, always at same pace. I see Vettel something in between

Vettel got his ass whooped by Ricciardo, who is now struggling against an 18 year old. As i said, Hamilton has done it all and more. Neither vettel nor Alonso have fought with a WDC in his prime and won. Alonso and Vettel have just got a demotivated Kimi to beat up on.

No driver on current grid has had as tough team mates as Alonso. Only taking into account WDC he´s fought with Kimi, Button and Hamilton, apart from Villeneuve who can´t be count too seriously, and some other strong drivers like Trulli, Fisicho, Massa, Grosjean... Only past season, due to Honda failures and pre-season accident, his team mate (Button) managed to score more points than Alonso. Even in 2007 with that huge support Lewis got from both his godfather (tire pressure mistakes, lights falling over Alonso´s car, allowing part of your team claiming against some other part of your team..) and FIA (cranes are allowed to put Lewis on track if he get stuck on gravel traps, steward decisions will be harsh with any Lewis competitor and soft with Lewis himself...) and even when he was Lewis (one of the greats), couldn´t score one more single point than Alonso.

BTW, IMHO that´s exactly the same situation Ricciardo is suffering right now. RBR is heavily biased towards Max. This is not any conspiracy theory, this is understanding about how F1 works. This is all about money, and if you can hype some driver to get fans attention, you´ll get more media coverage, more sponsors, more money, and more chances to win. McLaren did it with Lewis, Renault did it with Alonso, RBR did it with Vettel, and now again with Max. Mercedes is trying desperately with Nico too, but they can´t make up the huge difference between both drivers

Lewis has fought with Alonso and needed huge team support only to tie in points, and with Button he was evenly matched, first season for Lewis, second for Button (around 40 points differece both seasons) and third one for Lewis but with only 2 points advantage. Lewis had an edge, but not so big as some (me) would have expected.


So not sure what do you exactly mean, all of them have had tough team mates, Vettel not so much due to his age, but I can´t see how Lewis team mates have been any stronger than Alonso´s teammates. To me it´s exactly the opposite

You do know that Lewis lost 75 points just from races he could've won in 2012? Singapore, Abu Dhabi, and Brazil. That would've put him miles clear of Jenson and would've easily secured 3rd in the WDC. Not forgetting how many reliability, slow pitstops, and driver errors screwed Lewis out of multiple points. People like you love to bring out the fact that Lewis was nearly outscored by Jenson without taking account of all the problems that happened to Lewis.

The only weak teammate Lewis has had is Heikki. Fernando has had Massa and Kimi (2014), and Piquet Jr. Seb has had Bourdais. Your making it seem as if Fernando has always had strong teammates to go up against. I'm not even going to get into the whole 2007 McLaren drama. Which you are clearly well versed in.

[PlatinumZealot]

Seb has had webber and kimi as number 2 teammates.

[sosic2121]

I wonder how Lewis's c
stats would look if FIA kept gravel traps instead of runoff areas

[sosic2121]

To me the three greats are indeed greats, but my rating has changed during past seasons. I struggled to accept Vettel in this group, but he´s proved to deserve it. OTOH Lewis has proved to be not too reliable, he mekes more mistakes than he should.

The whole points per race and podia per race stats show he is actually extremely reliable.

Sorry but disagree, that stat only show he´s had very good cars his whole career.

For example, Alonso started with Minardi, so there he has several GPs without one single victory, podium or even points. Lewis start was with mclaren, fighting for victories and even the title in his very first season. Basically you´re comparing stats where the main difference is the car, like if they would be the evidence of driver talent difference. Obviously comparting Alonso´s results with Minardi and Lewis results with McLaren is comparing apples to oranges, or apples to a white whale , no possible comparison

Same with Vettel or even Max, some drivers are lucky enough to get a good car from the beginning, some don´t. Lucky or talent? Well, Alonso talent was out of doubt even before his Minardi days, ask Flavio about his very first F1 test, but none was willing to give him a good car. Senna is another example, he had to fight with a poor car at the beginning, while others had a much easier career.

Points, podiums, victories and titles depend too much on the car to make direct stat comparisons in f1. Apart from that, ignore them if you´re not Verstappen fan, he´ll destroy every record and they will be kept forever, as no driver will be able to drive a top car like him this season, with one and a half seasons experience, and only 18 years yet. There will be some other lucky guys making his debut on a top car, but since rules have changed to drive a top car with only 18 that will necessarily be his rookie season. Max has an edge over any other driver in future F1 history, if he´s as good as they say, he should destroy all records and keep them forever (if RBR can give him a good car, what seems a matter of time with the PU equalization), so if you´re willing to do comparisons based on stats, then I hope you´re a Max fan because according to stats, he will probably be best driver in F1 history soon, even if he´s not, but that´s how stats work in F1

I agree with everything you wrote in this and in other post.
I don't think RB is fair to ricciardo who is obviously a fantastic driver.
In Spain rb took a way ric's win a gave it to max.
in Monaco rb screwed ric twice! and max was having fun with barriers.
in Baku ric was 2nd till tires gave up...
In Canada ric was blocked by Rosberg returning to track, so max overtook him.
in Austria max made illegal overtake on ricciardo, and it was ricciardo that slowed down raikkonen enough for max's 2nd place.
Silverstone is only place max was better, but also it was vsc that created a gap between them

[Andres125sx]

The only weak teammate Lewis has had is Heikki. Fernando has had Massa and Kimi (2014), and Piquet Jr.

So you´re comparing Kovalainnen, who did nothing in f1, with a WDC and a WDC contender?


Also, you´re forgetting Rosberg and I´m deadly serious He can´t fight with Lewis not even when Lewis had a season start with lots of points lost. Massa was a tougher contender for Fernando, and Trulli, and Fisichella, and Kimi..... ok Kimi wasn´t

[Xwang]

Why nobody has changed to inter before the end of the SC?
Is it forbidden by the rules?