2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
Manoah2u
Manoah2u
409
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:07 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

Post

the thing thus to learn from the latter;

ocon unlapping himself is pointless.

he was quicker thanks to the mercedes top end speed and DRS.
once he passes max, there's no more DRS, and no more slipstream.

the RB is far superior in the corners.
Also managed to pass the Ferrari's blazingly fast at the start of the race.

So nice and all, Ocon passes max, then what? ah yes, Ocon immediately gets blue flagged again,
needs to move over, Max passes and the story can repeat itself.

It thus only slows Ocon and Max down. In other words, it was a absolute pointless deed.

Despite all of that, yes, the RB team also COULD have been more active in communicating with Verstappen
that there was a faster Force India behind that wanted to unlap itself. They indeed could have informed him
'hey, ocon is behind you, he's not racing you, driving his own race, and he wants to pass you. just let him unlap
himself and do his thing, he poses no threat nor does he influence your race'.

done and dusted.
but well, that's not how it went.

Because with the same logic;

you could say, even though they're in their right to unlap,

RPFI could also informed Ocon:

We know you're faster, but overtaking the race leader proves no point and has no influence on your race result.
Don't bother, just bring the car home and save the engine so we can totally trash it the next race where we might
get some points.

So in the end, really, all parties are to blame.

RB for not communicating wisely with Max.
RPFI for not letting Ocon leave it be.

Max for not leaving space for Ocon to pass.
Ocon for one-upping into Max' side.

There's only losses here and the biggest blame still lies with Ocon,
and for that he got penalized.

really, it doesn't matter if you like Max, whether you hate him, how he drives.

One thing is certain though; tensions will be higher in abu dhabi.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

dans79
dans79
241
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

Post

JonoNic wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:04 pm
Do you think they didn't learn from their Mclaren mistakes? They should have a good database of what worked or did not work with Mcl and TR then implement that into RB bodywork...
Honda has probably learned a lot, but that doesn't mean RBR, and more specifically Newey will listen. He has a history of putting aero before all else and damn the consequences, and he has been doing it since his time at McLaren. Even in the v8 era reanult and rbr had issues because of how tightly Newey packed everything, for example in the 2012 European grand prix when Vettel retired from the lead, because the alternator overheated and failed do to inadequate cooling.
Last edited by dans79 on Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
158 95 90 6

User avatar
GPR-A
98
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

Post

Phil wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:21 pm
TwanV wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:57 pm
Phil, I don't know what's happened to you as you were very balanced all in all but it seems you've entrenched yourself in your stance on this (and maybe the drivers in question on the whole?). What you're saying here makes absolutely no sense to me as you don't take into account the opposite view.
I think I have. If you go back to page 22, I was actually quick to blame Ocon for the incident in the heat of the race.

That was at the time, during the race, when they simply showed a replay of the collision, without the proper context. Later, after watching the full onboard of Ocon and seeing how there was a 2-lap build-up to the collision/incident, I changed my mind, because I felt Ocon was absolutely in his right to unlap himself, he did it in the most appropriate place of the track (long DRS zone), he had a legitimate run up and even was ahead (not to mention at a advantage into T2) and I feel Max wasn't being cooperative and playing ball. If you don't play ball and make it hard for your opposition (and again, against a guy he wasn't even racing), then I'm sorry, but I think he needs to take a good long and hard look at himself.

There's a thing called 'cause' and 'effect'. The 'cause' of the incident IMO is not the T2 moment when Ocon was already there, it happened before when Max moved to the inside before T1 to defend and started "battling" Ocon for track position.

I also put a large portion of the blame at RedBull who failed to inform their driver that he had a very quick Force-India on his tail and that he should perhaps just let him by to not compromise his race. I sadly don't have the time to look for examples, but there are other instances where lapped traffic have come through the field overtaking cars that were a lap ahead. This because at times, the guys at the front will be nursing their tires home while the back of the field is coming through with fresher tires and fighting for scraps. It has happened before, it's just that no one realizes it because it rarely gets shown or commented because it's really a non-issue.

I think a lot has to do with attitude and bad judgement here. At the end of the day, Max really could have played it safe and not get rattled by someone who wasn't relevant to his race or his position.
Red Bull didn't tell their champion driver back then either. And a similarly agitated prima donna. :D

Last edited by GPR-A on Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dans79
dans79
241
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

Post

Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:32 pm
he was quicker thanks to the mercedes top end speed and DRS.
once he passes max, there's no more DRS, and no more slipstream.
You obviously didn't watch the on board, because he was catching him or holding station with him in sector 2 where the Redbull should have been far superior.
Last edited by dans79 on Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
158 95 90 6

User avatar
NathanOlder
152
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

Post

Sieper wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:52 pm
TAG, Max had a Ricciardo 2018 season back in 2017, his reaction was try harder next race (only to see his car come to a smoldering stop yet again) only at one point I heard him say something along the lines that he didn't know if he could continue onwards. But in fact he kept on driving his hart out all season. Just like Ricci has done this year (despite a few less then optimal interviews, and admittedly, Ricci has now already signed at a different team so his mindset will be different ).
Thats not quite true. Last season Max retired 4 times through car issues out of his control.
Last season Ricciardo had 5, so more for Ricciardo.

This season Ricciardo has had 7 so far! Max has had 3 I believe.
So over the 2 yrs Danny has far worse of it.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0

Does anyone play F1 2020 on Ps4, Now starting our 3rd season. No assists, 50% races.

https://rapidpixelracing.com

User avatar
NathanOlder
152
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

Post

dans79 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:41 pm
Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:32 pm
he was quicker thanks to the mercedes top end speed and DRS.
once he passes max, there's no more DRS, and no more slipstream.
You obviously didn't watch the on board, because he was catching him or holding station with him in sector 2 where the Redbull should have been far superior.
Plus Ocon would have been losing time in Max's dirty air in sector 2. So in clean air he would have been faster in S2 than he was stuck behind Max.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0

Does anyone play F1 2020 on Ps4, Now starting our 3rd season. No assists, 50% races.

https://rapidpixelracing.com

santos
santos
37
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:48 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

Post

GPR -A wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:39 pm
Red Bull didn't tell their champion driver back then either. And a similarly agitated prima donna. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrK3Kzhz26U
[/quote]
The difference is that in this case, there was smart guy at the wheel of Red Bull and he didn't crahsed. Max lost the race very much due to his character. Lewis, Vettel or Alonso wouldn't let that happen.

foxmulder_ms
foxmulder_ms
2
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

Post

Obvious question: Why do you defend against an unlapping car? What is the point? I can only answer it by superiority complex fed by marketing people :)

User avatar
Sierra117
47
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:19 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

Post

It's fine to get wings from your redbull, just don't clip others'.
NIKI LAUDANZ SolidarityCubolligraphy | Instagram | Facebook
#Aerogorn & #Flowramir

GrandAxe
GrandAxe
19
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:06 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

Post

Max is only going to self-destruct the rate at which he is going. There's nothing for him to gain from those supporting him through his foolish choices, except reinforcement of his negatives.

Here's a longish story to illustrate where Max is headed.

There are places in the world where gangs pick out a rich looking, well dressed fellow; then send out a weedy, absolutely small and scrawny little guy to go stand in their path, make trouble, shove ... You know, just be a bastard, in the hope that the well dressed guy, instead of just wisely walking on by, would foolishly lose it (go "mentul" as they say in London) and lash out in some way. As soon as that happens, its Xmas time! Goodnight Sarah!
The gang (and genuine passers by) would all pop up on the side of the smaller guy to push, shove and distract their rich quarry while pickpockets and other scum set about relieving the rich guy of wallet and maybe even clothes and shoes.

Even though it wasn't deliberate, that's what happened to Max last race.
He still hasn't learnt, so it will happen again and the cost might not be a mere race win.

Alexf1
Alexf1
20
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

Post

foxmulder_ms wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:59 pm
Obvious question: Why do you defend against an unlapping car? What is the point? I can only answer it by superiority complex fed by marketing people :)
Because it's a slower Force India with a temporary tyre advantage. Not a Ferrari or Mercedes

Wynters
Wynters
66
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

Post

This is Formula 1. There is no 'fair play'. If there was fair play, the stewards would have nothing to do. Everyone wants to win and will bend every rule they can think of to achieve that goal. Why do you think Red Bull / Mercedes / Ferrari support the smaller teams? Charity? Why do you think MacLaren dumped Mercedes for Honda? Do you think that Sauber / Torro Rosso race Ferrari / Red Bull hard every time one of the big boys is coming up behind them on much fresher tyres?

The only moral high ground (if there is any) is whether or not a manufacturer is willing to directly endanger life to win. Renault ordering Piquet to put it in the wall is one example. Schumacher regularly crashing into championship rivals in the last race of a season (as long as he was ahead on points) is another.

Thread summary:-

One primary school of thought: Lapped cars should not be allowed to unlap themselves as they might slow the leaders either at that point or later

Another primary school of thought: Race leaders probably shouldn't risk fighting unlapping cars

A handful of fans (who seem to all be fans of a particular driver but do not represent all fans of that driver): Mercedes orders drivers to crash into other drivers (despite Ocon steering almost entirely off the track to avoid Max) / only crazy drivers under orders from Mercedes would want to unlap themselves (despite unlapping happening to other leaders during other races, none of whom managed to crash). Mercedes contracted drivers at other teams have not crashed into the race leader during any other race, despite numerous possible opportunities to do so during blue flag situations, when it would actually be relevant to the WCC / WDC but, for some unspecified reason, it was totally necessary now as a multi-team conspiracy that also involved a driver steering to avoid Max on multiple occasions (purely so he could lure Max into crashing into him!) is far more likely than Max making a mistake.

I think that sums it up, no? If it does, then I suspect there's not much need to post anything more unless external sources have a new insight.

Alexf1
Alexf1
20
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

Post

Haha. Unfortunately you're right. F1 has only 3 teams and they have their claws on the rest

dans79
dans79
241
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

Post

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14000 ... goaded-him
"I just wanted to look for him and ask 'what was going on, how could something like this happen?'

"But he immediately answered 'I was faster than you' and said it with such a smile on his face.
Don't smile at max when you talk to him, he apparently can't handle it and will become enraged.
158 95 90 6

santos
santos
37
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:48 pm

Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

Post

Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:07 pm
foxmulder_ms wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:59 pm
Obvious question: Why do you defend against an unlapping car? What is the point? I can only answer it by superiority complex fed by marketing people :)
Because it's a slower Force India with a temporary tyre advantage. Not a Ferrari or Mercedes
If it is temporary, then there was blue flags for Ocon. Ocon had the right and even moral for unlap himself. And let me tell you, i wanted Max to win and maybe the constructor title would be decided at the last race.
Ocon was penalized because it Max and he was leading the race. If it was Ericson and Stroll, no one would care. And it would be a "race incident".