2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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komninosm
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:02 am
zeph wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:27 am
Just because motor racing celebs agree, doesn’t make it so. I’m on record in this thread as saying the penalty was a terrible thing, and it really was from a racing perspective. But it was the correct call from the stewards. There’s a rule, there was a violation of the rule, so there was a penalty.
That was Jenson Button’s point after it all cooled down.

Don’t blame the stewards
Blame the rule. It’s black and white. You need to leave a cars width and Vettel didn’t.
Wait, did Button support the penalty in the end or not? I'm confused now.

komninosm
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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LM10 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:07 am
dans79 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:22 am
I'm sure you would have been dead silent if the positions had been reversed!
... but the fact there was no one coming along doesn’t make the completely deliberate cutting through grass on wet conditions to re-entry the track a safe one.
The fact that no one was coming along behind does not make the re-entry a safe one?!
Is that what you actually said here? Really? Geez...
I mean I can understand saying he cut the corner after the start and should probably be punished in some way or reprimanded, but seriously, unsafe re-entry with no cars behind?

The Black Knight
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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I think it was a penalty for Vettel. This article

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14399 ... y-decision

from autosport clearly explains why he got the penalty and it's hard to argue with. Vettel could have avoided squeezing Hamilton and that's the main point. Whether you agree with the rule or not, it is there and the stewards applied it correctly. However, if we are to take that back 20 years, no one would have batted and eyelid at it. F1 is exceptionally difficult to govern correctly because every incident is succinctly different. One the one hand, we complain when Stewards don't apply the rules correctly, and then on the other hand we complain when they do. They are in a no win situation. Either we scrap all these tight regulations and let them race, or we continue down this road. I don't think either approach will make everyone happy as someone is always going to feel aggrieved.
Last edited by The Black Knight on Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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turbof1
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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komninosm wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:39 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:02 am
zeph wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:27 am
Just because motor racing celebs agree, doesn’t make it so. I’m on record in this thread as saying the penalty was a terrible thing, and it really was from a racing perspective. But it was the correct call from the stewards. There’s a rule, there was a violation of the rule, so there was a penalty.
That was Jenson Button’s point after it all cooled down.

Don’t blame the stewards
Blame the rule. It’s black and white. You need to leave a cars width and Vettel didn’t.
Wait, did Button support the penalty in the end or not? I'm confused now.
He does actually neither. He expressed his feelings that it ruined the race, but he also acknowledged it is effectively a regulation.

I think that is the drama: you can't sacrifice fairness and safety for competition, but it is also sad seing competition being slaughtered like that. There was simply no good solution that would have left a general satisfaction.
#AeroFrodo

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214270
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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komninosm wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:34 pm
djos wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:44 am
Carl Mccoy wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:43 am
Bottas 2.0 is just illusion.
Even Ricciardo was surprised he could keep Bottas behind him for so long. He's really far too timid to be in a top car!
Riccardo moved twice blocking Bottas in two instances, so shouldn't be talking about this, as he escaped a clear penalty.
Bottas I think goes too soon in car save mode and thinks of future races when he feels he has little chance to better his position. He's not as bad as people say. Well clearly as he won races and pole positions already and is 2nd in ranking.
People just like to join the band wagon of ridiculing him. He's no Hamilton, but at least he makes less mistakes than Vettel at this point, and is more likeable.
The drivers seem quite happy bullying BOT. I think they see weakness and take liberties with him.

That or RIC was paying him back for China I think it was last year & being extra-aggressive

EDIT: Maybe it was Hungary When BOT crashed into RIC
Last edited by 214270 on Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The name’s Hondo...

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iotar__
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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tnajner wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:44 am
With hindsight, I think the best what Vettel could do was to let the car spun and by that he take out hamilton as well. Ferrari would win via Leclerc, everybody would happy and there would not be such an argument. :)) Fans of both teams would be happy, it would racing incident. Maybe thats better ending for certain fans of certain non-italian team.

One thing is rule as it is written and the other is racing as some older fans know it. With this kind policing, it is racing for puppies. Really, F1 has been getting softer and weaker over the past 10-12 years. Also this F1technical is continuously transforming into fans wars. Certain threads are not readable anymore.
"It is racing for puppies."
No, it's racing according to simple rules that apply to everyone, if you go off track after messing up you need to rejoin the track in a safe or safe enough manner. it's racing that awards skills not sliding across the corner (so common now, Perez did that too) All the lines/options/it wasn't a proper overtake Hamilton discussion would be relevant for regular overtake/defense not for this one.

"I think the best what Vettel could do was to let the car spun and by that he take out hamilton as well."
- or not go off and lose the lead
- or come back without getting a penalty with his poor driving and try to keep the lead.
- re overtake

Claiming that Vettel had not options (somewhere above) is absurd unless someone else was driving the car. He knew exactly what he was doing, not slowing down and steering right as if no one else was behind him to stay in front.

Like many people here I thought about Ricciardo-Monaco:
- I thought that it was borderline, just about penalty worthy, he clearly steered to block, "he left more space" argument is not relevant (not enough in Monaco) and somehow relevant because it was less blatant and gave stewards excuse to ignore it =P~ . Something Vettel could have done albeit risking an overtake, speed being important variable.
- you knew at the time he wouldn't get anything =P~

komninosm
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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ferenc_k wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:14 am
LM10 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:26 am
Thank you very much for this nice summary. Nothing more to say, really.
I did not see any ex-racer who supported the stewards decision. It tells a lot about the decision itself.
You mean like this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuele_Pirro
"is an Italian racing driver who has raced in Formula One, touring cars and in endurance races such as the 24 Hours of Le Mans which he has won a total of five times. Two times Italian Karting Champion (1976, 1979), Formula Fiat Abarth Champion (1980), two times Italian Touring Car Champion (1994, 1995), two times Italian Overall Champion (1995, 1996), German Touring Car Champion (1996), he also achieved records in endurance racing that place him amongst the best in the discipline, including; five wins in the 24 Hours of Le Mans (2000, 2001, 2002, 2006, 2007), two times ALMS Champion (2001, 2005), two times winner of the 12 Hours of Sebring (2000, 2007), three times winner of Petit Le Mans (2001, 2005, 2008), winner of the 24 Hours of the Nuerburgring (1989), two times winner of the Macau Guia Race (1991, 1992) and two times winner of the Goodwood RAC Historic TT. He has taken part in over 500 official national and international races."

The people who actually saw the telemetry and not just some moving pictures with badly synced sounds?

How about Button who said the penalty was right by the rules, but the rules should perhaps be changed?

Echo-chamber issue.

Bill_Kar
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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komninosm wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:48 pm

How about Button who said the penalty was right by the rules, but the rules should perhaps be changed?
Do you have source? Thank you.

This is exactly what Toto said as well, and I agree 100%.

komninosm
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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LM10 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:20 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:05 am
LM10 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:24 am


Me neither. You know why? Because they know exactly what they are talking about.
They were watching the same feed we were. The stewards had access to more information. Thus, the stewards are the ones that know what they're talking about.

It seems that people are happy to throw stewards under the bus these days. It's kind of reminiscent of politicians calling judges "enemy of the people" etc.
If the stewards decided the way which is written in this Autosport article someone posted above, then it's a joke. If they think that Vettel deliberately steered to the right, just screw this "acces to more information"! What we've seen there is called counter steering and you know that too. I don't need a bunch of people regularly deciding in a highly questionable manner to tell me wether it was counter steering or deliberate by looking at their fancy information. All the ex-drivers used a simple video footage and it was more than enough to interpret the situation.

Btw, seems like the stewards didn't have access to more information back in 2016?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGzDkb3UW0w
Do you not see that Hamilton left a car width for Riccardo there and Riccardo spined his own car in accelerating in the wet, scaring himself shitless? So by the rules Hamilton left width and it's not his fault the track was wet there.
Stop beating a dead horse.

KnottyBwoy
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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ubuysa wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:47 am
It's clearly ridicualous for any of us to try and second guess Vettel. He was racing, he wasn't changing lanes on the freeway. He made a mistake and left the track, and knowing exactly where Hamilton was, and how close he was, he rejoined as fast as he could in order to retain the lead. Perfectly understandable, I'm sure most of us would have done the same thing in the heat of that moment.

But what he did was contrary to the rules - as he well knows. Of course, had he returned to the track as he should have done, Hamilton would have passed him. Vettel even said as much. But that's what happens when you make a mistake. No driver should expect in a close race such as that to go off track having missed a braking point and not pay a price. The price he should have paid was to lose the lead and then fight to get it back (how good would that have been to watch?) but he didn't and so the stewards (rightly) made him pay a different price.
Exactly!Another example.....what if vettel did that (croos the grass) in qualifying and he got pole.....do you think his time won't be deleted?Ham was on the right track and vet was off the track....Vettel = Off track - rejoined and almost shoves Ham to the wall - gained an advantage = penalty.If he didn't commit that error, there won't be any debate like this.as simple as that.Vettel = MISSION SPINNOW

komninosm
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:53 am
Bill_Kar wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:39 am
SiLo wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:27 am
People bringing up Monaco 2016 must be blind. He left a cars width and once Ric got out of it pulled onto the racing line. Vettel just drove a line that was ever decreasing into the wall the whole time.
That bothers me since last night because everyone is referring to it.

Of course he left a cars width, otherwise RIC would actually be on the wall, there is no run-off area in Monaco.
LoL

I guess any discussion with Hamilton fans is pointless
Well yes, if you don't want to take off ferrari red colored glasses of bias and discuss civilly and with limited bias then, yes, discussion is pretty pointless for you.

digitalrurouni
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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To answer the question about ex-racers who support the decision seems Nico Rosberg is amongst them as well. Honestly I am against the decision but Rosberg also makes a good point and I will take his word over what I can analyze on slow mo videos on YouTube. He's a racer after all. Also another thing that annoyed me about Vettel - fine I got a penalty but the race is not over. IF I was Vettel wouldn't I need to recompose myself and try to build up a 5 second gap and give it all I got? I am a 4 time WC for fruit's sake! Couldn't his engineer have told him to calm the heck down and DRIVE as hard as possible and give it all he's got?

dans79
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:41 am
I do find it slightly distasteful when you have drivers (some actual former stewards!) throwing hand grenades from the sidelines. It’s easy to spout off when your not the one having to enforced a black and white rule.
Honestly, we shouldn't expect anything less from a drama queen like Mansell.
Last edited by dans79 on Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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komninosm
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:45 pm
komninosm wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:39 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:02 am
That was Jenson Button’s point after it all cooled down.

Don’t blame the stewards
Blame the rule. It’s black and white. You need to leave a cars width and Vettel didn’t.
Wait, did Button support the penalty in the end or not? I'm confused now.
He does actually neither. He expressed his feelings that it ruined the race, but he also acknowledged it is effectively a regulation.

I think that is the drama: you can't sacrifice fairness and safety for competition, but it is also sad seing competition being slaughtered like that. There was simply no good solution that would have left a general satisfaction.
The way you put it makes it seem like Button was saying the penalty was absolutely fair and should have been give, and it just was a pity it ruined the race (or Vettel did by not giving a position and fighting for the win properly afterwards).
This is 100% opposite to the picture the fake news Ferrari crowd try to paint of Button's statements in many a forums/discussions I visited.
Well, thanks I guess.
I agree with your last paragraph. It's sad that there was no good solution and it's because of badly behaved fans that have been fostered by Ferrari and Vettel (since before Baku black flag worthy incident). If the fans were educated and grown lovingly by the atmosphere of F1 then they would be able to accept an honest penalty and say like Monty Pythons: That's a fair cop.

That would have been the good solution then.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

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djos wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:40 am
So a pretty decent race overall - Ric and Hulk did a great job to bring home decent points for Renault.

I feel sorry for Seb, I don't really like him much and I'm not a Lewis fanboi either, however, Seb got robbed by the stewards today - that was a shocker of a decision imo.
How is it a shocking decision when you look at the rulebook ?
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