2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Wynters
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Jolle wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:18 pm
I also believe Verstappen made an extra point of not yielding, Leclerc will think twice the next time they go for the same corner.
It will be interesting to see how the two of them develop their approaches to each other. In this case, the onus was on Verstappen to change (which he did) as Leclerc had the upper hand after the first attempt. Leclerc will now change in response and on and on. Watching drivers develop their techniques respective to other drivers is pretty interesting to me. When Leclerc interlocked wheels on the exit during the first attempt, I wondered if he did it deliberately to stop Verstappen using his better traction (all four wheels on track vs two) from accelerating away. Second time around, Verstappen kept it wheel-to-wheel and did the trademark Verstappen 'nudge', wheel-face-to-wheel face (you can see him doing it to Ocon to make a point at the final race of the season last year) both making sure Leclerc lack traction and preventing any interlocking of the wheels.

Kimi is particularly interesting as he really divides the field. Older drivers know that he is cool under pressure and a consummate professional so they can try overtakes with him that would be too risky on others because they know he'll react professionally and has the skill to handle the situation. Younger drivers see someone 'weak' who they can 'bully' their way past at the obvious overtaking parts but don't realise they can try more complex moves because they don't rate him.

Almost all the drivers have different approaches to each other and it's one of the few ways to see who actually has respect for who.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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henry wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:41 pm
dans79 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:15 pm
henry wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:02 pm


The rule cited is 38.1. They didn’t decide on that based on the rules but on some mystic new feature “available space”.

Only when they have made a decision on that do they move to 38.2a.
That's not how the rules are written.

section 38 is about incidents during the race.

38.1 is defining what an incident is, and who determines when one has occurred.
38.1 The race director may report any on‐track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
Regulations or the Code (an “Incident”) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the
discretion of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation.

The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves.
38.2 is methodology they need to follow to determine if a penalty should be given.

38.3 lists the penalties they can apply, and how/when they can be applied

38.4 is the procedure the stewards must follow when issuing a penalty.
Sorry. My mistake. I should have referenced the Appendix L Chapter IV, 2b. which concerns the type of incident reported.

There’s no reference to that article in deciding on the facts of the incident. Essentially they said, “something happened but no one was to blame because there wasn’t enough space”.

Given the events of the previous lap the lack of space ruling seems hard to justify. And the Appendix L rule says nothing about available space.

My beef is that I was enjoying the racing and Max pushed Charles off and ended it. The interpretation of the “rules” in this case, and many others you have cited, encourages drivers to push people off and avoid racing.
Do you have a link to Appendix L Chapter IV, 2b please?
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henry
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:39 pm
"......

Do you have a link to Appendix L Chapter IV, 2b please?
It’s in here https://www.fia.com/file/82451/download/12831. I tend to download the pdf since it’s easier to navigate.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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henry wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:56 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:39 pm
"......

Do you have a link to Appendix L Chapter IV, 2b please?
It’s in here https://www.fia.com/file/82451/download/12831. I tend to download the pdf since it’s easier to navigate.
Thanks mate. Appreciate it.
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Phil
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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wesley123 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:09 pm
Phil wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:43 am
Steering lock is dependant on speed. More speed = more force = wider radius = wider line.
Which just confirms the same thing further.
The thing some don't seem to understand is that once you are committed to a certain speed around a corner [under racing conditions], your trajectory is more or less given, as you will be at the limit of turning force and grip. Turning in tighter (i.e. to avoid hitting the kerbs on the outside and crowding an opponent) will either induce under, oversteer or both. Lifting will shift the weight of the car, again, inducing under or oversteer. At corner exit, the car on the inside could accelerate less hard to change the trajectory to not hit the kerbs, but would he be obliged to do that? I think there's a very fine line here and the onus should go to the car on the inside for the above reasons, not least because the defending driver can choose to defend that position by covering it (which Leclerc didn't on two occasions).

In the sporting regulations, it states that "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted."

I believe the keyword "deliberate" is very important here. Being committed to a certain trajectory isn't being deliberate. However, the case between i.e. Rosberg and Hamilton in I think 2016 when Rosberg simply didn't turn into the corner and forced Hamilton off would be deliberate. Same applies to blocking moves in which the driver purposely pushes another driver wide or off track while being under full control of his car would be a deliberate crowding.
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roon
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Phil wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:24 am
Same applies to blocking moves in which the driver purposely pushes another driver wide or off track while being under full control of his car would be a deliberate crowding.
Intent was not found in Verstappen's case, but it was found in Vettel's case in Canada. I don't know how this is deduced by the stewards.

To some Verstappen was on a line and held it. To others he unloaded/reduced steering lock while a car was alongside him.

To some, Vettel was on a line which included recovery, and held it. To others he reduced steering lock prior to and while another car was alongside him.

I'm skeptical of your initial claim--not all corners nor moments within them during a race require the car to be at the limit of tire adhesion.

Edax
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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izzy wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:58 pm
Jolle wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:18 pm
oh yes, my bad. I heard the quote in my head and the accent sounded like Senna... But yes, Alonso was quite clean in that respect, as one of the very few.

But regarding covering the inside line, Leclerc did this on the lap before, and held the corner. On lap 89 he les all but defending that corner, going off track with two wheels on the opposite side. I also believe Verstappen made an extra point of not yielding, Leclerc will think twice the next time they go for the same corner.
well yes if you take the inside you'll be slow out, so you have to do something to slow down the other guy who's on the outside. If you're just following the racing line on the exit you're allowed to keep doing that even if there's a car on the outside of you. They all know this so the guy on the outside gives it up or gets pushed off, unless he's actually ahead

What Max did was not take the racing line but steer straight for a few metres past the apex, and with not being on the racing line that unwritten rule shouldn't apply and the rule about not crowding a car off the track should kick in. But he judged it to be in the grey area, unlike Rosberg who went all the way across. But for me it was more Senna than Fernando and I didn't like it. Everyone has their own preferences of course and mine are very biased to the fairness side of things, I love watching Lewis/Kimi/Fernando racing through a chicane, kind of thing, where it's all class and skill and the point is 'being the best' more than just 'winning' any way you can
I am with you to some extend. I love to see two drivers fighting it out corner after corner, and for that you have to make it fair.

However I am afraid that too strict rules will actually prevent this kind of fighting. To give an example; judged by the rules as they are now, this would be:
- forcing a driver off the track,
- causing a collision,
- overtaking outside of the white line.
- unsafe rejoining of the track.
- moving under braking
.
But for me it is one of the great pieces of racing.


Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Edax wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:03 am
izzy wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:58 pm
Jolle wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:18 pm
oh yes, my bad. I heard the quote in my head and the accent sounded like Senna... But yes, Alonso was quite clean in that respect, as one of the very few.

But regarding covering the inside line, Leclerc did this on the lap before, and held the corner. On lap 89 he les all but defending that corner, going off track with two wheels on the opposite side. I also believe Verstappen made an extra point of not yielding, Leclerc will think twice the next time they go for the same corner.
well yes if you take the inside you'll be slow out, so you have to do something to slow down the other guy who's on the outside. If you're just following the racing line on the exit you're allowed to keep doing that even if there's a car on the outside of you. They all know this so the guy on the outside gives it up or gets pushed off, unless he's actually ahead

What Max did was not take the racing line but steer straight for a few metres past the apex, and with not being on the racing line that unwritten rule shouldn't apply and the rule about not crowding a car off the track should kick in. But he judged it to be in the grey area, unlike Rosberg who went all the way across. But for me it was more Senna than Fernando and I didn't like it. Everyone has their own preferences of course and mine are very biased to the fairness side of things, I love watching Lewis/Kimi/Fernando racing through a chicane, kind of thing, where it's all class and skill and the point is 'being the best' more than just 'winning' any way you can
I am with you to some extend. I love to see two drivers fighting it out corner after corner, and for that you have to make it fair.

However I am afraid that too strict rules will actually prevent this kind of fighting. To give an example; judged by the rules as they are now, this would be:
- forcing a driver off the track,
- causing a collision,
- overtaking outside of the white line.
- unsafe rejoining of the track.
- moving under braking
.
But for me it is one of the great pieces of racing.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nxwn3OHkEw
The problem is that back in the day we had a fair few rather unsavoury incidents such as Prost Vs Senna X2 which kinda forced the stewards to START to take a harder line. Where we are today is the logical outcome because it’s a self fulfilling prophecy. Rules get stricter-Drivers expect penalties and complain-Rules get stricter-Drivers expect more penalties and complain-Rules get even more stricter-etc-etc. I’m not saying it’s right but some drivers over the years have painted us into this corner.

zac510
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Edax wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:03 am
I am with you to some extend. I love to see two drivers fighting it out corner after corner, and for that you have to make it fair.

However I am afraid that too strict rules will actually prevent this kind of fighting. To give an example; judged by the rules as they are now, this would be:
- forcing a driver off the track,
- causing a collision,
- overtaking outside of the white line.
- unsafe rejoining of the track.
- moving under braking
.
But for me it is one of the great pieces of racing.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nxwn3OHkEw
I watched the video again and honestly the only offence I saw was perhaps Arnoux running outside the white line a bit and even then he didn't really gain a lasting advantage.
The driving was much fairer than some incidents we've had in modern times, leaving car widths at all times, cars within the lines, etc.

I feel like you've evoked F1's version of Godwin's Law though, posting up this video.

Jolle
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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zac510 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:18 am
Edax wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:03 am
I am with you to some extend. I love to see two drivers fighting it out corner after corner, and for that you have to make it fair.

However I am afraid that too strict rules will actually prevent this kind of fighting. To give an example; judged by the rules as they are now, this would be:
- forcing a driver off the track,
- causing a collision,
- overtaking outside of the white line.
- unsafe rejoining of the track.
- moving under braking
.
But for me it is one of the great pieces of racing.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nxwn3OHkEw
I watched the video again and honestly the only offence I saw was perhaps Arnoux running outside the white line a bit and even then he didn't really gain a lasting advantage.
The driving was much fairer than some incidents we've had in modern times, leaving car widths at all times, cars within the lines, etc.

I feel like you've evoked F1's version of Godwin's Law though, posting up this video.
Just like race craft itself, racing evolves trough the years. For me, what makes Villneuve one of the greats was one of the first who was racing like he couldn't get hurt (and that theory is what killed him at the end). Before that drivers were much more aware that they were sitting in a flimsy cockpit with their feet sticking out next to fuel tanks that were trying to kill you. Only after his death would the technology catch up to his driving with carbon chassis. Senna gave racing another level up with making accidents part of racing and tactics. Only after Schumacher got away with it once, the stewards stepped in to put an end to this development.

The Hamilton/Alonso/Raikkonen generation grew up in the post Jerez years, where racing was pretty clean between Hakkinen and Schumacher and for some reason, Verstappen is introducing a bit of Senna tactics again... "I go for this gap you leave me, yield or we crash", with the exception that we had this long history of evolving race battles and Verstappen has a pretty good feel to find the edges of the rules and getting away with it, which by itself is also a next step in the development of driver performance.

Prost gave us tactics, Senna pure speed and feel, Schumacher endurance, Hamilton Perfection and Verstappen on the edge?

zac510
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Jolle, and of course with each generation up until now there has been more on offer in terms of fame, money and acclaim!

izzy
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Edax wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:03 am

I am with you to some extend. I love to see two drivers fighting it out corner after corner, and for that you have to make it fair.

However I am afraid that too strict rules will actually prevent this kind of fighting. To give an example; judged by the rules as they are now, this would be:
- forcing a driver off the track,
- causing a collision,
- overtaking outside of the white line.
- unsafe rejoining of the track.
- moving under braking
.
But for me it is one of the great pieces of racing.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nxwn3OHkEw
It is one of the classic battles of course but for me it's a bit overhyped and quite crude. I was much more wowed by our own Monza last year, between Kimi and Lewis. Lewis set Kimi up round Parabolica and passed him with his ES, through the chicane, then Kimi gets him back with his ES and Lewis lets that happen cleanly too, then over the stops Lewis' team sets up Kimi's team to make him overdo it on his new tyres and later on that pays off and there's another neat pass with all skill and no crude pushing and shoving. Shame they don't show us the ES for some reason,like they used to when it was just KERS. Anyway that's my idea of beautiful racing

I like it to be the same for everyone, basically, and about skill, not some drivers being safe and others gaining an advantage with sneaky little late moves and bumper cars, which aren't clever afaic

NL_Fer
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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But in the old day, when cars could follow eachother trough corners, they were always close and the speed difference to overtake was smaller. Now they lose, 0,5s in the corner, make up on he straigth with DRS, overtake with 20-30kph difference and divebomb into the corner to make it stick.

It is more dangerous and blunt to begin with.

z.topoln
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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They can follow very close in turns these days

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Phil wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:24 am
wesley123 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:09 pm
Phil wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:43 am
Steering lock is dependant on speed. More speed = more force = wider radius = wider line.
Which just confirms the same thing further.
The thing some don't seem to understand is that once you are committed to a certain speed around a corner [under racing conditions], your trajectory is more or less given, as you will be at the limit of turning force and grip.
Agree, but that´s mandated by the point driver decided to hit the brakes, so it´s not that he can do nothing to close the trajectory, he can, he just need to hit the brakes a bit earlier if he´s parallel with another car as in that situation no driver should go from edge to edge as if he´s alone in the track, he should leave some space. If he he don´t hit the brakes at the necessary point and then is forced to open up the trajectory and invade the other car´s line, then it´s still his fault, even if after hitting the brakes he can do nothing to prevent it, he should have prevent it earlier, before hitting the brakes that late.

Agree, once he´s hit the brakes he can do nothing to prevent invanding other´s car´s line, but that does not change the fact he´s still responsible for the braking point he chose. If that point forced him to invade other´s car line, then he simply went too long hitting the brakes too late. Still his fault Phil.