2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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dans79
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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henry wrote:
02 Jul 2019, 22:12
I notice there is no reference to the wording of the cited regulations. I wonder why?
section 38.2 a
It shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide if any driver involved in an Incident
should be penalised.

Unless it is clear to the stewards that a driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for
an Incident no penalty will be imposed.
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falonso81
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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So even if a move is illegal the stewards can just agree that they don't find the driver at fault and can declare said move legal. I love F1 rules...

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henry
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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dans79 wrote:
02 Jul 2019, 22:44
henry wrote:
02 Jul 2019, 22:12
I notice there is no reference to the wording of the cited regulations. I wonder why?
section 38.2 a
It shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide if any driver involved in an Incident
should be penalised.

Unless it is clear to the stewards that a driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for
an Incident no penalty will be imposed.
The rule cited is 38.1. They didn’t decide on that based on the rules but on some mystic new feature “available space”.

Only when they have made a decision on that do they move to 38.2a.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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dans79
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Location: USA

Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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henry wrote:
02 Jul 2019, 23:02
dans79 wrote:
02 Jul 2019, 22:44
henry wrote:
02 Jul 2019, 22:12
I notice there is no reference to the wording of the cited regulations. I wonder why?
section 38.2 a
It shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide if any driver involved in an Incident
should be penalised.

Unless it is clear to the stewards that a driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for
an Incident no penalty will be imposed.
The rule cited is 38.1. They didn’t decide on that based on the rules but on some mystic new feature “available space”.

Only when they have made a decision on that do they move to 38.2a.
That's not how the "rules" are written.

section 38 is about incidents during the race.

38.1 is defining what an incident is, and who determines when one has occurred.
38.1 The race director may report any on‐track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
Regulations or the Code (an “Incident”) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the
discretion of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation.

The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves.
38.2 is methodology they need to follow to determine if a penalty should be given.

38.3 lists the penalties they can apply, and how/when they can be applied

38.4 is the procedure the stewards must follow when issuing a penalty.
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henry
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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dans79 wrote:
02 Jul 2019, 23:15
henry wrote:
02 Jul 2019, 23:02
dans79 wrote:
02 Jul 2019, 22:44


section 38.2 a
The rule cited is 38.1. They didn’t decide on that based on the rules but on some mystic new feature “available space”.

Only when they have made a decision on that do they move to 38.2a.
That's not how the rules are written.

section 38 is about incidents during the race.

38.1 is defining what an incident is, and who determines when one has occurred.
38.1 The race director may report any on‐track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
Regulations or the Code (an “Incident”) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the
discretion of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation.

The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves.
38.2 is methodology they need to follow to determine if a penalty should be given.

38.3 lists the penalties they can apply, and how/when they can be applied

38.4 is the procedure the stewards must follow when issuing a penalty.
Sorry. My mistake. I should have referenced the Appendix L Chapter IV, 2b. which concerns the type of incident reported.

There’s no reference to that article in deciding on the facts of the incident. Essentially they said, “something happened but no one was to blame because there wasn’t enough space”.

Given the events of the previous lap the lack of space ruling seems hard to justify. And the Appendix L rule says nothing about available space.

My beef is that I was enjoying the racing and Max pushed Charles off and ended it. The interpretation of the “rules” in this case, and many others you have cited, encourages drivers to push people off and avoid racing.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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dans79
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Location: USA

Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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henry wrote:
02 Jul 2019, 23:41
My beef is that I was enjoying the racing and Max pushed Charles off and ended it. The interpretation of the “rules” in this case, and many others you have cited, encourages drivers to push people off and avoid racing.
With no refueling, restricted tire options, and cars that are very susceptible to dirty air, drivers have very few ways of pulling off a pass now. For better or worse, passing on the inside and then squeezing the defender off on exit has been an acceptable passing method for a while now (within bounds).
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Pany
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Joined: 09 Mar 2016, 10:26

Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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In my opinion veestappen "had" to win. For the whole show and stop mercedes dominance for a little while. Some of you may understand me. I support redbul and mclaren and they need some "help". Ferrari moment will be Monza, maybe Germany

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Pany wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 07:56
In my opinion veestappen "had" to win. For the whole show and stop mercedes dominance for a little while. Some of you may understand me. I support redbul and mclaren and they need some "help". Ferrari moment will be Monza, maybe Germany
Why do people say this, and the media too. "RedBull stop Mercedes dominance". Ferrari also finished ahead of Mercedes. And they managed it legally too :wink: :lol:
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Phil
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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If football (soccer) had to endure this level of scrutiny regarding what the referee’s (stewards) decide during a match... the sport probably would have gone down the drain a long time ago.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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marvin78
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Phil wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 08:40
If football (soccer) had to endure this level of scrutiny regarding what the referee’s (stewards) decide during a match... the sport probably would have gone down the drain a long time ago.
It's about to. But that's mostly because of other reasons.

Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Phil wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 08:40
If football (soccer) had to endure this level of scrutiny regarding what the referee’s (stewards) decide during a match... the sport probably would have gone down the drain a long time ago.
Have you ever been to the pub? People discuss football decisions endlessly in many of them, arguing over whether it was a penalty, an offside, a dive etc. Some of them even get in to fights about it.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Maplesoup
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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How long does it usually take before these race threads are locked hahaha

Let them race guys!

The overtake wasn't the cleanest everyone can see that but not every overtake can be a pretty little DRS move.
If there have been a wall there then Leclerc would of conceded the place, he only went for it knowing he could probably ride the curb if he had to.
The contact didn't destroy his race, didn't break anything on the car, didn't injure or put anyone in danger and Leclerc didn't lose 10 places because of being put off the track.

This kind of contact happens all the time during attempted overtakes, and rarely is it ever a judged anything other than a racing incident.

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Phil
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Just_a_fan wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 09:15
Have you ever been to the pub? People discuss football decisions endlessly in many of them, arguing over whether it was a penalty, an offside, a dive etc. Some of them even get in to fights about it.
I guess you’re right. I was just commenting that i dont know of any other sport that has that many “bad calls” (or lets call them debatable), but i felt that generally people still move on, because it’s accepted that it is the referees call from the best of his ability at that given time and that’s the end of it. I dont think a game result has ever been “recalled” or altered post, no matter how wrong some calls have been. Some championships have even been decided on them.

Anyway, i think less penalties would do F1 well, but enforcing the given rules is also the only way to achieve consistency and make it a legit competition. Rules are also required to keep the sport safe enough. At the same time, we want racing that goes beyond simply seeing “DRS overtakes”. It’s a fine line.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

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henry
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Joined: 23 Feb 2004, 20:49
Location: England

Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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dans79 wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 00:04
henry wrote:
02 Jul 2019, 23:41
My beef is that I was enjoying the racing and Max pushed Charles off and ended it. The interpretation of the “rules” in this case, and many others you have cited, encourages drivers to push people off and avoid racing.
With no refueling, restricted tire options, and cars that are very susceptible to dirty air, drivers have very few ways of pulling off a pass now. For better or worse, passing on the inside and then squeezing the defender off on exit has been an acceptable passing method for a while now (within bounds).
I’m not sure I agree with your whys but passing under these technical rules is extremely difficult, almost certainly too difficult. (Ruling out DRS which suffers from another type of regulatory nonsense)

However, I don’t think it is a good solution to allow it to be solved by breaking one of the Sporting rules, deliberate crowding beyond the edge of the track, and only in particular types of corners and then only if the Stewards “feel” it was OK. It encourages “wham bam thank you passes” rather than racing. Anticipation is half the fun of most enjoyable activities.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Politics, the usual and aweful politics in F1... :x

What the stewads said:
but there was clearly insufficient space for both cars to do so

What happened in the real world, on that lap and the previous one
If track doesn´t get narrower each lap, I think we can´t find a better example of an absurd decision based on politics as the argument used is just too ridiculous...

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