2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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hollus
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Please, stop the personal hostility.
¡Puxa Esportin!

sosic2121
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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siskue2005 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:32 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:47 pm

I don't agree with some of your statements.

I understand why would you carry more fuel. But why would you do it in Abu Dhabi you can't cheat any more!?

The second fuel flow measuring sensor was to be used from 2020 onwards only, not from Abudabhi 2019
So why would Ferrari lose performance after US GP?

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siskue2005
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:39 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:32 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:47 pm

I don't agree with some of your statements.

I understand why would you carry more fuel. But why would you do it in Abu Dhabi you can't cheat any more!?

The second fuel flow measuring sensor was to be used from 2020 onwards only, not from Abudabhi 2019
So why would Ferrari lose performance after US GP?
The TD issued by FIA on that weekend was just a warning to all teams to not deceive the fuel flow sensor.
Ferrari surely stopped doing that or reduced the amount of deceiving it does to the fuel flow sensor after that TD, they didnt do that in qualifying after US Gp, but that doesnt stop them doing it in race in abu dabhi. There was no way FIA was going to identify their trick (according to FIA's own admission) until there is a second encrypted fuel flow sensor after the first one.
TD at US GP
In his answer, Tombazis cited the following parts of the FIA technical regulations:

5.10.3: All cars must be fitted with a single fuel flow sensor, wholly within the fuel tank, which has been manufactured by the FIA designated supplier to a specification determined by the FIA. This sensor may only be used as specified by the FIA. Furthermore, all fuel delivered to the power unit must pass through this homologated sensor, and must all be delivered to the combustion chambers by the fuel injectors described by Article 5.10.2.

5.10.5: Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow rate or to store and recycle fuel after the measurement point is prohibited.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fuel ... a/4591689/

However, from 2020 with the encrypted second sensor placed and a "secret deal" with FIA, Ferrari is now a midfield engine.

The governing body investigated a trio of fuel systems after the Brazilian Grand Prix, one believed to be from a Ferrari, another from a Ferrari customer team and a third from a non-Ferrari powered car.

On Wednesday, the FIA issued its latest technical directive – a third in four weeks – instructing teams they will be required to add a second FIA-controlled sensor in 2020.

Though it is not known if this was an explicit response to the checks the FIA conducted after the race at Interlagos, the new sensor will further strengthen the FIA's ability to police engine rules next year.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fuel ... 0/4601058/

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:10 pm
holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:33 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:51 pm

I am confused a little bit here.
What overheating electronics in Bahrain has to do with cheating?
So in USA Ferrari stopped cheating and lost performance, but fuel discrepancie from Abu Dhabi is proof that they were cheating in for example Spa?
Yeah they were pulsing the fuel pump in between the fuel flow sensor readings (hz) so it wouldn't register. Imo they were using the control electronics in this somehow, remember vettel had another failure with this in Russia.in Abu Dhabi they lied to the fia about the amount of starting fuel they put in leclercs car, this was after the second sensor was installed. Some how they were trying to flow more fuel than allowed by having more start fuel than they told the fia. And the 2019 spa race is the first race after the summer break before the us gp
AFAIK CE controls electric side of the PU, not engine side.
Also in Russia IIRC Vettel lost MGUK.
Have they been cheating the sensor? Maybe. Maybe not. Even FIA does not know. I believe this rumour started when RB informed FIA that sensor could be tricked.
I still don't understand what Abu Dhabi has to do with sensors and cheating, when it happened after second sensor.

IMO Ferrari lost their 2019 chances when pirelli changed the tyres, which solved mercedes' tyre problems, and created problems for everyone else. Their low drag concept was developed after 2017, when they had fast race car which, but were loosing due to Mercedes Q performance(especially since following and overtaking was not possible in 2017).

My question would be, why pirelli changed the tyres? Is there political game behind the scenes where this was arranged?
It certainly forced Ferrari to change their concept to high DH. Now Ferrari lost straight line performance, but suddenly is benchmark in tyre performance. Of course, now they lost couple of years of development and they are crap everywhere else.
Please stop with the thinner tire conspiracy stuff. This was Kimis tire after the 2018 Italian gp. https://images.app.goo.gl/gM6KaDTALsxWXqeQ6
That was caused by blistering that led to delamination. Ferrari were no better on the tires than Merc were. The thinner tires were better for everyone.

sosic2121
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:17 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:10 pm
holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:33 pm


Yeah they were pulsing the fuel pump in between the fuel flow sensor readings (hz) so it wouldn't register. Imo they were using the control electronics in this somehow, remember vettel had another failure with this in Russia.in Abu Dhabi they lied to the fia about the amount of starting fuel they put in leclercs car, this was after the second sensor was installed. Some how they were trying to flow more fuel than allowed by having more start fuel than they told the fia. And the 2019 spa race is the first race after the summer break before the us gp
AFAIK CE controls electric side of the PU, not engine side.
Also in Russia IIRC Vettel lost MGUK.
Have they been cheating the sensor? Maybe. Maybe not. Even FIA does not know. I believe this rumour started when RB informed FIA that sensor could be tricked.
I still don't understand what Abu Dhabi has to do with sensors and cheating, when it happened after second sensor.

IMO Ferrari lost their 2019 chances when pirelli changed the tyres, which solved mercedes' tyre problems, and created problems for everyone else. Their low drag concept was developed after 2017, when they had fast race car which, but were loosing due to Mercedes Q performance(especially since following and overtaking was not possible in 2017).

My question would be, why pirelli changed the tyres? Is there political game behind the scenes where this was arranged?
It certainly forced Ferrari to change their concept to high DH. Now Ferrari lost straight line performance, but suddenly is benchmark in tyre performance. Of course, now they lost couple of years of development and they are crap everywhere else.
Please stop with the thinner tire conspiracy stuff. This was Kimis tire after the 2018 Italian gp. https://images.app.goo.gl/gM6KaDTALsxWXqeQ6
That was caused by blistering that led to delamination. Ferrari were no better on the tires than Merc were. The thinner tires were better for everyone.
It was better for some than it was for the others. Should we compare Leclercs tyres from Monza 2019 and what they had to do to make one stop work for them?

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Ferrari had a dditional sensor fitted in 2019 i think. But FIA still couldn't prove what they were doing.

maxxer
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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So now place 13 - 20 are Ferrari powered cars and they still blame this on other issues then engine power ?

pluse the 2 williams ofcourse lol

LM10
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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maxxer wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:28 pm
So now place 13 - 20 are Ferrari powered cars and they still blame this on other issues then engine power ?

pluse the 2 williams ofcourse lol
What are you talking about? Ferrari has admitted already weeks ago that they lost engine power.
But their lack of pace is not only lack of power, of course. It’s a completely unbalanced and awfully hard to drive car which was built around a powerful engine which they’ve lost.

maxxer
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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LM10 wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:14 pm
maxxer wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:28 pm
So now place 13 - 20 are Ferrari powered cars and they still blame this on other issues then engine power ?

pluse the 2 williams ofcourse lol
What are you talking about? Ferrari has admitted already weeks ago that they lost engine power.
But their lack of pace is not only lack of power, of course. It’s a completely unbalanced and awfully hard to drive car which was built around a powerful engine which they’ve lost.
talking about none of the other ferrari cars are going faster also , so while first ferrari said it was not just engine power then what is it

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siskue2005
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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richardn
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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dans79 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:44 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:10 pm
I still don't understand what Abu Dhabi has to do with sensors and cheating, when it happened after second sensor.
If someone is tricking the fuel flow sensor and using more fuel than the rules allow, then the car has to have more fuel onboard. The FIA compares what the fuel flow meter says was used during the course of the race, to the pre race manual measurement minus the post race manual measurement. Thus the fuel load report would have to be falsified or the numbers wouldn't match.
I don't think is true that if you're tricking the sensor you need to have more fuel onboard. If you can make your fuel flow oscillate in time with sensor measurements then you can probably make the measurements coincide with peaks or troughs at will. For qualification you'd need to measure on the peaks on the warm up and cool down laps and the troughs during periods of high fuel demand. Obviously there is much less scope to do this during the race.

sosic2121
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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maxxer wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:04 am
talking about none of the other ferrari cars are going faster also , so while first ferrari said it was not just engine power then what is it
RAI 1:44.557 > 1:43.743
GIO 1:45.637 > 1:43.950
MAG 1:45.086 > 1:44.314
GRO 1:44.797 > 1:43.838

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Moore77
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:08 am
maxxer wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:04 am
talking about none of the other ferrari cars are going faster also , so while first ferrari said it was not just engine power then what is it
RAI 1:44.557 > 1:43.743
GIO 1:45.637 > 1:43.950
MAG 1:45.086 > 1:44.314
GRO 1:44.797 > 1:43.838
Surely, they must be using Cosworth engines!
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maxxer
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Moore77 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:09 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:08 am
maxxer wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:04 am
talking about none of the other ferrari cars are going faster also , so while first ferrari said it was not just engine power then what is it
RAI 1:44.557 > 1:43.743
GIO 1:45.637 > 1:43.950
MAG 1:45.086 > 1:44.314
GRO 1:44.797 > 1:43.838
Surely, they must be using Cosworth engines!
Haha they saw the problems coming then and quickly called Cosworth "what do you have around we can use" :)

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Big Tea
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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maxxer wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:01 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:09 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:08 am

RAI 1:44.557 > 1:43.743
GIO 1:45.637 > 1:43.950
MAG 1:45.086 > 1:44.314
GRO 1:44.797 > 1:43.838
Surely, they must be using Cosworth engines!
Haha they saw the problems coming then and quickly called Cosworth "what do you have around we can use" :)
GP2 engines, GP2 engines
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